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Thread: First Dovetail Saw

  1. #16
    I've had both the LV and LN.
    I like the LN better and sold the LV. It's a minimal learning curve.

  2. I used the Lee Valley dovetail saw for a few years. It's a really great saw for the price. The only complaint I had with it was the composite back was quite thick and when I was looking straight down the length of the saw while making a cut it would cover the cut line. I really like the handles on the LV dovetail and carcass saws though, and they are probably my favourite shape of any saw I've used.

    I now own a set of Gramercy saws.
    Last edited by Jason Martin Winnipeg; 02-19-2021 at 4:56 PM.

  3. #18
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    Lest we forget....there are other saws out there, besides just the LNs and LVs....
    Mine..
    The saws, for Dovetails 3.JPG
    Rather the main 3 I use....2 are Disstons..
    The Saws, 2 Disstons.JPG
    A No. 68 and a No. 4....I use each size according to the size of the work being done...have been known to set up Mr. Bishop's No. 10 saw..
    The Saws, Disston #4,Bishop #10.JPG
    Can choose which teeth I want to use, and even preset the depth of cut....it hangs out with the rest of the Ready Use Saws..
    The Saws, at the ready.JPG
    Old School work, needs Old School saws....

  4. #19
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    Apr 2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Gaudio View Post
    Derek: I believe the LN currently incorporates 8° of rake (was in touch today with LN on their DT saw). Phil
    Whatever the factory rake on the saw, it is easily changed over the course of a few sharpenings, assuming one is willing to sharpen it oneself.

    I have owned the Veritas dovetail saw for 5 years or so; it was my first dovetail saw and is a great value. I learned to sharpen it properly at approximately the factory rake first, but gradually found that I wanted a more aggressive rake. I currently have it close to zero rake. It's a great saw that won't hold you back, particularly if you're willing to adjust it to match your preferences.

    That said, after a the first few months or so. I began to see the value in the handle clearance Warren describes. He's also correct about the relative vulnerability of the toe and the protective qualities of the tapered (canted) blade.

    Another point is that there's a relationship between depth and ideal thickness of the plate; the ratio between the two is what's important here. Too thin for the depth and the saw is going to be more likely to try to follow the grain in softwood or to get (temporarily, while in the cut) distorted if the kerf gets warped due to internal stress in the wood. This leads to a saw cut that is curved rather than straight across. This can be offset by keeping the saw very sharp, but as a beginner it can be difficult to judge when it's time to sharpen.

    There can be advantages to purchasing an inexpensive gent’s saw to start if it helps you work up the nerve to practice sharpening. I, however, find the handle style uncomfortable to use for more than a few quick cuts. I much prefer a handle that places my wrist in a neutral position (the Veritas dovetail saw being one example). YMMV
    Last edited by Michael Bulatowicz; 02-20-2021 at 8:46 AM. Reason: autocorrect. . . again

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
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    When starting out, I believe that a dovetail saw with relaxed rake (around 14 degrees) will be forgiving and encouraging. As one learns to hold the saw - how much tension in the grip, learning to relax, to use one's body more naturally - then a faster cutting saw becomes more desirable. The sweet spot for me is between 5 -8 degrees.

    I have found that one size does not fit all in my world. Sawing Jarrah is different from sawing Tasmanian Oak, and different from Hard Maple, Black Walnut, etc. Even changing angles when sawing the pin board one will find that one angle is harder to start the cut than the opposing angle.

    The amount of set can dramatically change the characteristics of a saw. Too little and you may bind enough to make the cut an effort. A little extra set suddenly frees the plate and it then feels light and nimble.

    If you are anything like me when I started out, the thought of keeping teeth sharp was the furthest thing on my mind. I suspect that many use saws with teeth which are dull. You do not need to do a full re-sharpening; just touching up the teeth will keep it going effortlessly for a few more projects.

    Favourite dovetail saws (excluding renovated vintage saws and saws I have made): 3/4" hardwood drawer fronts and cases - LN standard, Independence Tools (the saw that started the resurgence), and Gramercy.
    1/4" thick drawer sides (generally Tasmanian Oak or similar) - Wenzloff & Sons 20 tpi, Veritas 20 tpi

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 02-20-2021 at 12:21 PM.

  6. #21
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    Apr 2007
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    Derek mention many things that affect how the saw works. If you order a bad axe saw, you are asked what you intend to saw and the saw is sharpened and set appropriately.

  7. #22
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    I have never bought a Veritas tool and regretted it.
    Rob Lee has a history of backing up his tools.

  8. #23
    Your original question was about straight versus taper and whether it would affect the accuracy of hitting the baseline on the cut. I had the same question but bought the Lie-Nielsen saw anyway. In practice, I saw down close to the baseline on the front, check the cut on the backside, and adjust however necessary to hit the baseline on both sides. The taper does not affect accuracy that I can tell. Theoretically, the taper reduces the flex and vibration in the saw plate. It also shifts the weight balance closer to the hand. In reality, it is a small effect because the depth of a dovetail saw is not very great anyway.

  9. #24
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    Perhaps one should go and ask Roy Underhill about the dovetail saw he is always using?

    That No. 4 saw I have, takes 8 full strokes to travel 3/4" down into the wood. I bought 14" of saw, I tend to use all of it. Don't need to sit there, doing little nibble cuts, just start the cut, and then finish it...usually have plenty more cuts to do. Usually, it is NEVER about who made the saw....it is all about how someone is using the saw.....Bad cut? Don't blame the saw, blame the operator of the saw.

    Un-sure about why everyone wants such tiny teeth.....on a saw that is basically just a RIP saw.....Unless they want to sit there all day long, making one cut....24 ppi? Why? Sales Hype?

    Dovetail Class, day 4, handsaw.JPG
    Then..
    Dovetail Class, Day 2, kerf knife.JPG
    Then..
    Dovetail Class, Day 2, four chopped.JPG
    Don't forget the other half...
    Dovetail Class, Day 2, four tails done.JPG
    And hope they go together...
    Dovetail Class, Day 4, dry fit #4.JPG
    And..
    Dovetail Class, Day 4, end grain showing.JPG
    YMMV

  10. #25
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    Feb 2004
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    Perth, Australia
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    Steven, some like to buy new saws ... about the same feeling you get when browsing swap meets.

    Buying a new saw is a good place to start if you have no way to compare it to something you could either build or restore. I have done all of these and I must admit that using an old saw is a buzz. So I belong to both camps.

    I was using this saw today. Picked it up at a wood show two or three years ago, a Nurse (circa 1900) with great potential. However, one needed to believe this at the time.

    I don't have a photo of the complete saw, but the parts (only thought to take photos after it was dissembled) ...



    Here, one can see that the brass back had come away from the plate. The back was twisted and curved in two directions.



    The handle was beautiful. A little on the small .. compact ... side, and the bump was too pronounced for my comfort.

    The plate was cleaned, the brass back straightened, both reassembled, the teeth filed off and completely redone at 15 tpi (5 degrees rake), and the handle refinished after the bump was lowered.



    I used this saw today to cut the through dovetails in 10mm Tasmanian Oak for drawer backs ...



    Great saw. But you can only buy one with experience, not money.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #26
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    Jul 2015
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    Broadview Heights, OH
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    Steven,

    No need to ask, see attached or view any of his shows from the late 90s.

    Regards,

    Pete

    IMG_0149.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    Perhaps one should go and ask Roy Underhill about the dovetail saw he is always using?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
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    Northern California
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    Quote Originally Posted by steven c newman View Post
    The Saws, at the ready.JPG
    Old School work, needs Old School saws....
    Steven,

    Derek touched on a theme similar to what my comment will be.

    My first dovetail saw was a brand new Adria. When I purchased it I had no idea about rake, set, fleam, taper, number of teeth, etc. Nor did I have the requisite skill to sharpen it. I bought it because I liked its size (8”) and how it felt in my hand. It was not the easiest saw to start the cut, but that was likely due to my inexperience cutting dovetails rather than the saw’s fault. Now that I know what I’m doing it’s a lovely saw that makes quick work of dovetails in most woods.

    I have since acquired an old Disston (12”), which was dead straight but needed sharpening. Had this been my first dovetail saw, I would have quickly grown frustrated and probably purchased a Leigh jig. Now that it’s tuned up, it’s a wonderful saw but I still reach for the Adria more often than not.

    Bottom line, not everyone has your skill set or desire to scrounge for hidden gems in need of a major rehab. Nor are many people aware of the coterie of skilled saw smiths that can turn a junker into a jewel. That was me at one time. For them, buying a quality new saw is the right path.

  13. #28
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    Having used both old and new saws both are usable. Now it all depends on what is being cut that determines the saw.

    For most dovetail work my thin plate saws at 14 & 15 ppi are usually preferred.

    If cutting in 2X construction lumber one of my saws with a thicker plate is chosen.

    The operator controls the saw. The tooth geometry, tooth count and other elements up of the saw make handling the saw easier for the operator to make accurate cuts.

    A higher tooth count tends to leave a smoother cut with less chip out.

    That No. 4 saw I have, takes 8 full strokes to travel 3/4" down into the wood. I bought 14" of saw, I tend to use all of it.
    That's going to make me go out and count strokes tomorrow. My brain is saying a 10" saw with 15 ppi can make that cut in 5 or 6 strokes.

    But it is late and my eyes are trying to close.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 02-23-2021 at 11:26 AM. Reason: words
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Michiana
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    3,046
    I started out with a batch of antique backsaws. Fine saws from yesteryear that I purchased and refurbished. Some were tapered but most were straight. Once resharpened they worked well for general joinery, but the plates were thick and the sets were generous and the cuts were less than precise for dovetails. I bought a LN Dovetail saw and it was night and day. In the end I sold all my antiques and bought a LN Carcass Saw and Tenon Saw with the proceeds. Less clutter now and I can perform all required cuts very precisely. No regrets at all.

    BTW - Mine are straight versus tapered.
    Sharp solves all manner of problems.

  15. #30
    I have both of Lie-Nielsen's dovetails saws (the straight plate saw is older), and I prefer the .015 plate to the thicker, heavier .020 one. Honestly, I don't think the taper makes a big difference, but it may prevent over-cutting the back side of the board. The thinner plate obviously is going to to leave a smaller kerf, which I prefer, but you should anticipate using a fret saw to remove waste rather than a thicker-bladed coping saw that can hang up in the tighter kerf. I have used several of the Lee Valley saws and they are a good value, but have none of the aesthetic appeal of a traditional saw. I also found them to be harder to start in the cut. At the price charged for LN 's dovetail saws they are a true bargain considering that the next tier of saws from other makers like Bad Axe are around hundred dollars more expensive. The bad news is that Lie-Nielsen saws have been sporadically available due to the limitations required in manufacturing in the Covid era. As I post this, they have some saws available.

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