Building out the shop, could use some advice!

[Bryan Hall]

Hi everyone! New to the forum and relatively new to woodworking. I'm a finish carpenter so I'm not new to the trades, but hanging a door and building a door are obviously two incredibly different skills.

I've insulated, heated, and wired up my 23x23 2 car garage (no cars live inside) and have been dabbling with small projects for about a year. Mostly I've made cutting boards, coasters, as gifts to clients for their homes after I complete work for them. I've been making end tables, some outdoor furniture, custom shelves, built ins for my home.

Now to the point: I feel as though I've likely pushed my Dewalt jobsite table saw to the max when it comes to hardwoods. It's an amazing jobsite saw, but it struggles with accuracy when I'm trying to do any kind of joints and or cut through hardwoods. So, I'm looking at the Sawstop PCS right now and have a couple questions. Does anyone have a recommendation to upgrade to the ICS for the 5hp motor? Everything I read seems to say that 3hp performs flawlessly. Also, I need a real router table. I've never used a saw with an integrated router table, and am wondering if thats a good idea, or is my money best spent on a separate router table? I'm leaning towards the 52 table" with no router, but am open to more experienced perspectives. Safety means a lot to me. I don't plan to stick my fingers in any saw, but have been leaning towards the SS for this reason, along with the reported excellent dust collection.

Last: The other tools in my shop are a grizzly 8" helical jointer which I do love. I had an absolute miserable experience with grizzly on a drum sander and bandsaw though (in the process of returning), so that company is now out of the question for me. I also have the Dewalt dw735 planer and am waiting on a byrd head for it. Milwaukee 12 and 7-1/4" miter saws, festool domino, dustright 1250 cfm wall mounted collector, mafell track saw and crosscut saw, and then all the assorted power tools that any contractor would likely have.

My goals in woodworking right now are probably to keep going towards having a shop that compliments my work well. Custom benches, builtins, tables are what I am asked for frequently. I personally love chess, have been trying to make a flawless board but haven't gotten it yet, also need to learn to use the lathe at some point. Any advice on machines and tooling that help in that direction would be appreciated!

[ChrisA Edwards]

I bought my 110v PCS Sawstop about 5 years ago when I was limited to 110v power.

I moved and 220v became available, so I did the Sawstop 3HP 220v conversion, took me about an hour.

If ripping something thick and long, I swap out my WoodWorker II combo blade for a thin kerf WWII Rip blade.

So far, I don't think I've tried to rip anything that has slowed this 3Hp and rip blade combo down.

I also decided put a router in the right end of the Sawstop. I've used it a few times, but also have a standalone router table that gets used most of the time because it's more convenient. If I was really tight on shop space, I could get rid of my standalone router table and just use the one in my Sawstop.

[Ron Selzer]

I have a SawStop ICS 5hp, 36" fence, overarm dust collection and mobile base.
Had a 1987 Delta contractors saw, have a few years time on a PM 66 back in the 80's. I have slowed the blade down on mine resawing, and hit the stop button fast with my leg.
Like the dust collection AFTER hooking shopvac up to guard and abandoning the overarm.
The mobile base works great, others have posted about using it with the PCS.
Ron

[Zac Martin]

sounds like you are off to quite a good start! I don't have any experience with the SS yet, though I did ask someone else here about the PCS vs ICS just yesterday on another thread. I'm quite jealous you got your shop insulated!

[Alex Zeller]

I got my PM66 used with a router in the extension table. I was using a cast iron router table from MLCS before that. It doesn't use a router insert plate so it was a little limited (the top was 3/4" thick so raising bits high enough was an issue). The company that mounted the router into the extension table did a very poor job so I fixed it with a Woodpecker's insert.

A few things have left me thinking I should modify the cast iron table to accept a woodpecker's sized insert. First is there's no T-slot for the router on an extension table. I did buy some track with the intentions of putting it in the extension table but to do it I would also have to modify the rails for the fence. It can be done so it's not a show stopper. The other issue is there's been several times when I've used the saw and the router at the same time (back and forth). That means moving the fence vs being able to just set it up for the job and leaving it. Since the insert is easy to remove from the extension table and put back in (not screwed down) without having to set anything up. So once things warm up I'm going to make it so when I need both tools I can just remove the router from the extension table and get the router table out of storage and put it in it.

If money and or room is tight then I would put the router in the extension table. In fact I don't see any downside. Down the road you can always move it to a stand alone router table if you feel that would better suit you. Since the inserts just drop into place and use a spring loaded ball to hold them you could even swap it back and forth.

[Jack Llewyllson]

I've insulated, heated, and wired up my 23x23 2 car garage (no cars live inside) and have been dabbling with small projects for about a year. Mostly I've made cutting boards, coasters, as gifts to clients for their homes after I complete work for them. I've been making end tables, some outdoor furniture, custom shelves, built ins for my home.

Now to the point: I feel as though I've likely pushed my Dewalt jobsite table saw to the max when it comes to hardwoods. It's an amazing jobsite saw, but it struggles with accuracy when I'm trying to do any kind of joints and or cut through hardwoods. So, I'm looking at the Sawstop PCS right now and have a couple questions. Does anyone have a recommendation to upgrade to the ICS for the 5hp motor? Everything I read seems to say that 3hp performs flawlessly. Also, I need a real router table. I've never used a saw with an integrated router table, and am wondering if thats a good idea, or is my money best spent on a separate router table? I'm leaning towards the 52 table" with no router, but am open to more experienced perspectives. Safety means a lot to me. I don't plan to stick my fingers in any saw, but have been leaning towards the SS for this reason, along with the reported excellent dust collection.

Last: The other tools in my shop are a grizzly 8" helical jointer which I do love. I had an absolute miserable experience with grizzly on a drum sander and bandsaw though (in the process of returning), so that company is now out of the question for me. I also have the Dewalt dw735 planer and am waiting on a byrd head for it. Milwaukee 12 and 7-1/4" miter saws, festool domino, dustright 1250 cfm wall mounted collector, mafell track saw and crosscut saw, and then all the assorted power tools that any contractor would likely have.

Hi, Bryan:

Sounds like you're doing the right kind of thinking.

My experiences (take it for what you will; I'm not a pro) include buying a Unisaw with a 52" fence some years ago. That was replaced by a Sawstop when I got more wobbly and my teenage son wanted to do some work in the shop.

I bought the 52" version of the Unisaw because it was planned to be a lifetime purchase, and I didn't want to regret a lack of capacity later. It gave me the capacity to crosscut a full sheet of plywood... dangerously, and somewhat inaccurately. I would no longer be able to do that, period.

My Sawstop has a 36" fence, which for me is plenty. That immediately opened up a little bit of room in my shop. Because space was still tight, I replaced the shiny-topped, particle board table leaf with a cast iron router table section that bolts to the saw table and rails, and dropped an Incra router lift into it. It's not perfect, in that I have to remove a fence and any other bits that are in the way to use that real estate for sawing or dadoing purposes. Also, the fence rails extend past the router table. If that ever bugs me too much, I'll lop off those rails with a SawzAll.

It's been a long time since I've shoved a full sheet of plywood across a table saw. For me, that's become dangerous and stupid. Your post indicates that you have a Mafell track saw, which is a far better -- and likely more accurate -- solution for breaking down large sheet goods. To me, that eliminates any attraction to a 52" fence, although I may be overlooking something (as is often the case). They make walking around the saw a longer trip than necessary, and it's not all that easy to commission storage under your saw table if you need the saw mobilized.

While I haven't used every saw out there, dust collection with the SS is vastly improved over my well-beloved Unisaw. To be honest, my main concern was that the SS would be "light" and not hold its settings, but it's been fairly bombproof. The blade guard is actually useable and I have it on for most ops, as compared to my Unisaw's guard which was in "like new" condition when I sold the saw. It also creates a pretty good dust collection vortex.

For times when the guard must be removed, Sawstop's factory splitter is far better than the Biesemeyer splitter I installed on my Uni.

Whoever devised the packaging and assembly instructions for the Sawstop deserves the Shop Medal of Freedom, and frankly I wish every OEM would hire her/him/them. A capable 12-y.o., who'd never seen a table saw in action, could get through the process without undue stress and do a creditable job.

As to power, I wouldn't worry too much. Mine rips oak, maple, and very thick old growth fir without breaking a sweat. Part of that is its accuracy -- if your stock is smoking, it's not because you're short on motor. It generally means your saw requires adjustment or a sharper blade. Honestly, if your projects require more than 3 hp in a table saw and you also want to run a lot of big sheet stock across it, you might consider running three-phase power to a panel saw in a large, industrial setting. That sounds super cool to me, but it wouldn't fit in my garage-sized shop, even before the phase converter was added.

Personally, I believe the SS "Professional" (i.e. 3 hp) falls into the "prosumer" category: modest overkill for a spoiled hobbyist, although light on capacity for a full-blown cabinet shop. The ICS strikes me as appropriate for maybe a boat shop that rips a lot of large stock. Lovely machines though they are, neither is a panel saw -- both excel at ripping and are nice for finer crosscuts.

Sawstop does make a decent sliding table. Can't tell you much about that, as I've not taken the plunge. I feel that sliding tables on these types of saws are innately inferior to the native tables of a panel saw.

I'm pretty happy with the Pro and its dinky, 36" fence. I feel like if I were in a "go big or go home" attitude (with a budget and space to match), I'd consider stepping up to Minimax or Felder equipment.

Good luck with your forks in the road. You seem to be making thoughtful choices. May as well trust your judgment, 'cause your shop runs on it.

[Matthew Hills]

Why are you interested in the long fence for your tablesaw? (would a slider be a better match for your work?)

Dust collection is probably the area that I'd upgrade after table saw.

I use the benchdog contractor's router table. I wouldn't care to have this built in to my table saw wing.
Router lift would be nice if using router a lot.

Sounds like you've already put drum sander on your wish list.
8" jointer is a decent size
Your planer gets generally good reviews; wider and quieter tend to be the upgrade options, but doesn't sound like an upgrade is warranted at this point.

Lathes are also popular, particularly for making gifts.

Matt

[Jon Nuckles]

I have the 3hp PCS and have bogged it down only when ripping thick stock that has reaction wood that squeezes the back of the blade. Never in normal circumstances. Dust collection at the blade is good, but one of these days I will hook the overarm tube to a shop vac to improve it. I'm happy with the PCS mobile base in my large shop where I almost never move it. If I had a small shop and had to move it often, I'd get the ICS base, which fits the PCS. I have a router built into a large laminate outfeed table, but the cast iron ones that bolt onto the Sawstop are tempting at times.

I have had similar experiences to yours with Grizzly tools. My 8" Grizzly jointer works well and was a good value. I returned one of their lathes because it wouldn't run consistently and bought a Powermatic 3520 which I really like. When you get serious about a lathe, post something in the woodturning section here and you will find a lot of helpful people willing to advise you on where to spend that money.

I have a DW735 and like it for my hobbyist use. I'd buy a bigger and heavier planer rather than invest in a Byrd head for my 735. The straight knives are easy to change and give a great finish when sharp. I can understand the other side, though, and it sounds like you have already made your decision there.

My only real lack is a bandsaw and I am no expert on those, so can't offer any help there. Let us know what you get and how you like your purchases!

[Dave Sabo]

My take:

3hp is plenty unless you routinely cut domestic, or tropical 12/4 hardwood.

Spend the money elsewhere - like on a better dust collector.

Separate or integrated table is more a personal pref. and closely relates to space. It you're short on it, mounting it in the saw table makes sense because it's already there taking up floorspace. Most arrangements have it on the right of the blade. My pref is to the left. But really I prefer my shop with stand alone router tables. Think about where your material is going to feed in and out of.

I'd also suggest you look into European combo machines. Either a 5 in 1 or a saw/shaper with a jointer/planer. SCM and Hammer are the two big players. These are high quality manuf. on par with the other gear you have and they'll give you some economies of space. They'll offer you sliding saw capability that the SS cannot. Both have excellent bandsaws in their arsenal as well.

[Dave Opsahl]

Bryan, I’m about to pull the trigger on a bandsaw from Grizzly and I’d be interested in your experience. Could you pm me if it isn’t appropriate to mention here. TIA.

[roger wiegand]

I've long enjoyed being able to use the back side of my Biesemeyer fence as a fence for my router insert. I really do need to upgrade that some time soon to something that I can adjust from above. The laminate on the saw table I made has bubbled, so it's time to make something better (after ~30 years).

[Jack Frederick]

I have the SS PCS which came with the 52” fence. I have no trouble cutting 8/4 material. It was large and the table to the rt became a catch-all. That was my problem, I understand, but with your space and proposed work I think you would be better to forego the 52. I recently added the SS RT to the rt side of the table on my saw and it has been excellent for my needs. With the RT I did not need the legs so I can move that saw as needed, easily. I break down sheet goods with my track saw. The mobility, compact footprint and capability of the SS & RT are a good package

[Terry Therneau]

1. Prior to a recent rearrangement, I had all the space and support you would want to rip a sheet of plywood with my cabinet saw, and still I came to the conclusion that this was a bad idea. I built a breakdown table: 24" wide x 6' long, 2x4 on edge with ends and 3 cross members, screws far enough from the top that I won't hit them, and a pair of "cafeteria table" fold up legs from the big-box store. It sits vertical in my plywood rack and takes only a minute to set up or take down. Then use the track saw. Set it 1/4" too deep and away we go.
2. The cabinet saw in question is a 1 HP Unisaw (1947), and I very rarely had horsepower issues if using a sharp blade. This would argue that 3HP will serve you well.
3. I now have a sliding saw, a topic with near infinite discussion of on this site. The primary reason was an upgrade in safety, sawstop was my other option on that front. (A used Felder appeared and I went that route.)

Terry T

[Bryan Hall]

Bryan, I’m about to pull the trigger on a bandsaw from Grizzly and I’d be interested in your experience. Could you pm me if it isn’t appropriate to mention here. TIA.

Hey Dave, I looked for the PM button but couldn't find it. I don't think it's inappropriate to mention.

I ordered the G0513X2BF bandsaw from them. It showed up with the cast iron table broken. They sent me a second table, it showed up with scratches gouged into the top and the paint damaged on the sides. They offered me a $50 credit and some paint to repair. I turned them down and asked for a 3rd table, which they agreed to but said would be 6 weeks out. I wired up the machine with the second table installed and immediately smelled a terrible burning coming from the lower cabinet. The motor pulley was misaligned causing the belt to burn up. After several calls in to service people no one was sure about how to remedy the problem. They offered to send me various replacement parts to "try and fix it" I told them it was time to part ways with a refund.

The drum sander had an unfixable flaw. The drum was installed into the housing at an angle. It put the drum so high on one side that the stock wouldn't touch the drum, but instead was dragged across the machine housing on the open end. This cannot be altered, it's a fixed mounting point.

Customer service was 50/50. Some people genuinely wanted to help me. Others told me I was taking up too much of their time and that other people were on hold needing help.

The only way I would buy from them again is through home depot where I have a 1 year no nonsense return policy. Interestingly enough, the jointer came through Home Depot and was excellent. Every step of the purchase, delivery, service, that was through grizzly direct was a hassle in one way or another. I honestly didn't have adequate time to research them before the purchase. It was a bit of a last minute end of year splurge for the business. I wont make that mistake again.

[Bryan Hall]

sounds like you are off to quite a good start! I don't have any experience with the SS yet, though I did ask someone else here about the PCS vs ICS just yesterday on another thread. I'm quite jealous you got your shop insulated!

It's a total game changer!