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Thread: Yet another Dust collecting topic

  1. #1
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    Yet another Dust collecting topic

    Hello everyone

    as I wrote in a previous topic, I moved into a bigger shop last year. I kept my original dust collector and system and only added some main duct to fit the shop. I took a decision not only because I ran out of budget with the rest of the machines and I wasnt sure that this would be the final layout of my shop and needs.

    My system at this point has a 1stage, 2hp, 30cm impeller,125mm inlet, filter bag and run 125mm main duct and drops to machines.
    As you will see in the photos I have the dc in a seperate room along with my lumber storage for saving space and noise. Of course I know that this sucks a lot of air from the workshop but living in Paros, Greece I use a small workshop heater for less than 10-15days a year so its not a problem. The room is 280cm tall and the collector will be places right after the door at 200cm height of inlet.
    147393544_325185448897924_3093154963397172801_n.jpg

    Now in european market we dont get a lot of ready 2stage collectors so my options are including shipping to my door and added remote controll system when not included:


    Oneida Eu-export V-2000 2600euros
    1-phase 2hp, 38cm impeller, tall cyclone

    https://www.oneida-air.com/dust-coll...collector-220v

    Laguna Cflux 3 1750euros
    3-phase 3hp, 39cm impeller, short cyclone

    https://www.lagunatools.uk/laguna-pr...ctors/c-flux-3

    The next options are not a ready kit:

    In Europe we do have a several type of Cyclones that are coded and produced with certificate, in out case its the JA type:

    https://www.pro-tech-con.com/en/prod...e-type-ja.html

    The JA 20 is really simillar to Bill Penz EF5 separator in size (a bit taller, but a bit less in diameter) and I have asked a local company that can make me one from 1.5mm galvanized steel for 650euros

    And either use a ready system like Bernardo DC-650 1360 euros

    https://www.krollit.com/en/impianti-...,7:12,3:7,8:14

    But I can also buy a radial Fan and build it my own saving space and money and actually with good separation I can even blow out of the shop the fine dust.

    I guess any of the following will do the work

    https://www.krollit.com/en/ventilato...ifughi-rv-403/ 850euros

    https://www.krollit.com/en/ventilato...ifughi-rv-400/ 650euros *this is on the DC-650 above

    https://www.krollit.com/en/ventilato...fughi-rv-5500/ 650euros


    and the cartige filter is at 260 euros /piece

    As for ducting I plan to to either of going with 160mm or 200mm main duct and reduced to 125mm before blast gate and flexible hose to the machine with 2 45degree and 40cm straight pipe between them.

    I know that it's stated a lot of times that the bigger the main the better, but Im a bit concerned that the transition from 119mm to 194mm -those are the inside measurments of the pipes- will reduce the velocity a lot.

    The following photos are the optimal drop in my workshop now, the main duct and the layout.

    147065210_421083529000346_7478577884280293587_n.jpg

    146649985_425939898656894_7395148215570440366_n.jpg

    146986185_772608763462561_599964120226704274_n.jpg

  2. #2
    Michail, it may take a few minutes to get responses. ...everyone is searching for a calculator to convert to imperial units! Please be patient with us.

  3. #3
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    Hahaha of course I totally forgot about it.

    I may be able to edit my post and add inches later on.

  4. #4
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    Don't worry about the units...folks who want to help will deal with it.

    Two-stage cyclones have the advantage of pre-separation which makes dealing with what's collected a lot easier than a typical single stage dust collection system. But also remember that you need more power/impeller with a cyclone because the device inserts a little efficiency hit in the air stream. While I use a 2hp (Oneida) system successfully with my gear, which is largely SCM/Minimax made in Italy, if I were buying today, it would be at least the next step up to have a little more airflow for when I'm pushing things with say the planer/thicknesser on very wide material. Relative to short cone vs long cone, the latter is naturally going to have better preseparation and since you have the ceiling height you do, that's what I'd opt for if at all possible.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #5
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    So hello to everyone in the forum again.
    After some delay problems and a lot of search in the meantime I've found some Polish companies that make cyclones and extraction fans.

    I was really surprised to find out that they are ALOT cheaper than the ready systems.

    So some characteristics:

    I was trying to find specs on sizing similar to Clearvue EF5 cyclone
    , I figured out that the separator seems to have ~140cm height and 50cm diameter.
    If someone can confirm this it would be great
    So the price for a power coated separator 160cm tall and 50cm diameter is 550euros(around 650usd)

    And a 4kw(5.5hp)fan with 2400pa max pressure and 2900cfm with 40cm impeller (16") would cost 650 euros with the electrical wiring and 3phase on off thermal switch

    I guess and hope that this system would be powerful enough to run my workshop 27feet farthest inlet and separate good enough.

    I plan of using 160mm piping since it's the both vfm and widely available in smooth Spiro pipes and components.

    Any input would be helpful .

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michail Kyriazanos View Post
    So hello to everyone in the forum again.
    After some delay problems and a lot of search in the meantime I've found some Polish companies that make cyclones and extraction fans.

    I was really surprised to find out that they are ALOT cheaper than the ready systems.

    So some characteristics:

    I was trying to find specs on sizing similar to Clearvue EF5 cyclone
    , I figured out that the separator seems to have ~140cm height and 50cm diameter.
    If someone can confirm this it would be great
    So the price for a power coated separator 160cm tall and 50cm diameter is 550euros(around 650usd)

    And a 4kw(5.5hp)fan with 2400pa max pressure and 2900cfm with 40cm impeller (16") would cost 650 euros with the electrical wiring and 3phase on off thermal switch

    I guess and hope that this system would be powerful enough to run my workshop 27feet farthest inlet and separate good enough.

    I plan of using 160mm piping since it's the both vfm and widely available in smooth Spiro pipes and components.

    Any input would be helpful .
    The plans and all information is available online from the Pentz web site so you can have an exact copy of a Clearvue built locally.

    Use 3 phase and a VFD, the advantages are huge

    The impeller should be a minimum of 16"

    That recipe is all you need to build a super efficient cyclone. We use and advise a 225mm main duct using the above specs with 150mm drops to the machines and the machine ports modified to 150mm and it simply works. The impeller size is the critical factor, whether it is driven by a 3hp motor or a 10hp motor at the same speed it moves the same amount of air a point that a lot of people miss. The first question anyone should ask if buying a DE is what size is the impeller and forget the rest. Personally I would not buy or build a single phase machine for a bet now that VFD's are so readily available. People go into raptures about calculating duct sizes etc but use a big enough impeller and suitably large ducting and a ducted system will always work. The 3 phase/VFD motor is especially beneficial outside the US to raise the motor speed to 60hz or more as needed. We in Australia have been using VFD's for over 10 years to acieve a higher motor speed and with absolutely no issues at all.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  7. #7
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    Thank you Chris for the asnwer.

    Yes i agree that the 40cm/16" impeller its the minimum, thats what i get with the 5.5hp motor, the next step is 7,5hp to handle 48.5cm/19" impeller, which is too much.

    I cannot install that big 225mm main duct for a lot of reasons. The ports are 125mm on all my new SCM machines and bandsaw, the inner architecture of the machinery doesnt allow modifications on the ports and it doesnt make a difference also, so the big vollume of air it wont affect them, the key is to move it really fast , so i wont gain anything with bigger ducting above 180mm since i dont use 2 open ports at 99% of cases.
    So 160mm ducting will provide a lot velocity with sucificent volume for 1 machinery for sure.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michail Kyriazanos View Post
    Thank you Chris for the asnwer.

    Yes i agree that the 40cm/16" impeller its the minimum, thats what i get with the 5.5hp motor, the next step is 7,5hp to handle 48.5cm/19" impeller, which is too much.

    I cannot install that big 225mm main duct for a lot of reasons. The ports are 125mm on all my new SCM machines and bandsaw, the inner architecture of the machinery doesnt allow modifications on the ports and it doesnt make a difference also, so the big vollume of air it wont affect them, the key is to move it really fast , so i wont gain anything with bigger ducting above 180mm since i dont use 2 open ports at 99% of cases.
    So 160mm ducting will provide a lot velocity with sucificent volume for 1 machinery for sure.
    In that case use a 15" impeller and if you need any more at any time wind up the VFD to 70hz. This is the approach I use but the one disadvantage is the extra noise generated. A 16" impeller can be run at 50hz and at that speed it aproximates a 15" impeller at 60hz. Avoid flexible ducting where possible as it kills air flow in a big way. I don't know about SMC but Hammer machines have a 125mm port on the outside where it can be seen and 10mm inside the machine where it can't be seen which seems like someone is getting ripped off.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  9. #9
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    Hello to my fellow Greek . My family is from Anoye , Greece .

  10. #10
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    As an update I ve just recieved the components and im really happy with the quality of manufacturing. Tommorow im going to start fitting stuff together so hopefully everything are going to fit well and consistent.

    And as a great surprise i measured the impeller to be 450mm in diameter (17,7 inches) so i guess im going to be super fine with it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michail Kyriazanos View Post
    So hello to everyone in the forum again.
    After some delay problems and a lot of search in the meantime I've found some Polish companies that make cyclones and extraction fans.

    I was really surprised to find out that they are ALOT cheaper than the ready systems.

    So some characteristics:

    I was trying to find specs on sizing similar to Clearvue EF5 cyclone
    , I figured out that the separator seems to have ~140cm height and 50cm diameter.
    If someone can confirm this it would be great
    So the price for a power coated separator 160cm tall and 50cm diameter is 550euros(around 650usd)

    And a 4kw(5.5hp)fan with 2400pa max pressure and 2900cfm with 40cm impeller (16") would cost 650 euros with the electrical wiring and 3phase on off thermal switch

    I guess and hope that this system would be powerful enough to run my workshop 27feet farthest inlet and separate good enough.

    I plan of using 160mm piping since it's the both vfm and widely available in smooth Spiro pipes and components.

    Any input would be helpful .
    A 17.7 inch impeller will do anything you want and will support 3 x 150mm blast gates being open at the same time. We always use 225mm pipe for a main duct and drop 150mm down to the machines which have been modified for 150mm blast gates. Use a 3 phase motor and a VFD and you would be able to run the DE at 50hz if you wanted to reducing the noise levels. I installed a 17" machine in a woodworking club and they never have a problem with lack of air flow running the VFD a
    at 60hz.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  12. #12
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    What HZ is the electric in Greece? 50 or 60HZ. Big difference in fan curve and horsepower required with the change in rpm.
    Bill D

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    What HZ is the electric in Greece? 50 or 60HZ. Big difference in fan curve and horsepower required with the change in rpm.
    Bill D
    Bill, the fan speed yes but what changes for the fan curve? Just use a 3 phase motor with VFD, run it at 60hz and all the differences disappear. AFAIK the ROW outside the US/Canada uses 50hz but don't quote me. I run mine at 70hz and have been for years and nothing has exploded. Use 3 phase and all the restrictions imposed by single phase disappear.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

  14. #14
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    Chris, true the fan curve does not change but most users go with the factory RPM so that variable is not in play
    60 hz high speed motors are 3450 rpm. What are they for 50 hz?
    Bill D.

    On edit: I looked it up Greece is 50HZ. so 3,000 RPM or 1,500 RPM for most normal ac motors
    Last edited by Bill Dufour; 05-25-2022 at 9:50 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    Chris, true the fan curve does not change but most users go with the factory RPM so that variable is not in play
    60 hz high speed motors are 3450 rpm. What are they for 50 hz?
    Bill D.

    On edit: I looked it up Greece is 50HZ. so 3,000 RPM or 1,500 RPM for most normal ac motors
    2850 RPM is the generally accepted motor speed for 50hz, a drop of about 33% from 60hz. It was this problem that we overcame by using VFD's but it still is a disparity that exists on any machine including saws, routers etc. I am of the opinion that all DE specs are quoted at 60hz and damn the rest of the world but then the specs are questionable at 60hz anyway.
    Chris

    Everything I like is either illegal, immoral or fattening

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