Seeking advice: Sharpening kit and chisels

[Dean Arthur]

Sharpening is a journey so you'll ultimately have to go on yours. That said, after several different sharpening setups I ended up with that exact shapton set - 1k, 5k, 12k. Love it.

I'm sure the DMT flattening plate is great, but I would use an Atoma 400.

A CBN wheel on a grinder is your ultimate 'coarse' stone. Life is too short to re-bevel modern steels on a coarse stone.

Just get the Lie Nielsen honing guide. You 'saved' $160 on getting the Atoma instead of the DMT flattening plate so might as well

[David Bassett]

Hi everyone, I'm new here (first post) ...

Welcome!

I was thinking, from the length of the thread, you'd already gotten every possible opinion, but skimming through it I see several factions haven't been heard from and some of the length comes from a detour into benches. Welcome to the Creek. TMI is our specialty.

...

For sharpening I was looking at the Dia-flat 95 and shapton ceramic stones (korumako) grits 1000, 5000 and 12000. I definetly want a honing guide. I was thinking of buying the Lie Nielsen honing guide. Starting out I will need to sharpen lie Nielsen bench planes, and Veritas pmv-11 chisels. Moving forward I would (possible) in the future add Veritas skew block plane, large router and medium shoulder planes. I also plan on one fishtail chisel (blue spruce), and mortise chisels (Ray Iles). I realize the honing guide won't be usable with Veritas skewed planes.

TL: DR

1. What do you guys think of the sharpening stones as a set?
2. What do you think of the DMT DIA-FLAT 95?
3. Will the LN honing guide handle Veritas chisels? Blue Spruce Fishtail chisels? Ray Iles Mortise Chisels? If not is there a good alternative to considure?
4. What fishtail chisel size should I get?

All advise will be very welcome. At this stage I would rather not give up using a honing guide.

The Shapton Korumako stones are labeled Shapton Pro in the US, and often abbreviated SP on forums, and have been pretty widely reviewed under the Pro name. I'm sure you would be satisfied with them. Certainly you can do worse! Much worse. I don't recall any opinion on the 12K stone, I expect it'd work fine for you. I can note a big proponent of the SP stones is Christopher Schwarz and he recommends the 1000, 5000, & 8000. I have soaking stones, which work well, but I'm often tempted to try the SP stones since they are true splash & go.

Given US pricing, I don't like the DIA-FLAT at all. I'm sure it's wonderful, but I feel it is a very poor value. As woodworkers we need a different version flat than say a precision machinist and the Dia-Sharp plates, the Atoma plates, and even (often, but not always!,) the cheap no name diamond plates are enough for our purposes flattening stones. (Side note on CBN. It tends to be more expensive than diamond here and except for grinding wheels where significant heat is generated diamond works as well or better.)

I know the LN honing guide is well respected. However no guide will hold every possible blade and instead of chasing the next jig or adapter for each new tool I chose to learn to sharpen to freehand. It is a process and I'm far from perfect, but if you set your expectations correctly it doesn't get too frustrating. (I think "less dull", instead of "sharp", and it really helps both my outlook and my performance.) Chisels are pretty easy, plane irons with camber are a little more challenging, and knife blades & carving gouges with their complex curves are an even bigger one. But even the hard cases are pretty easy to get less dull.

I too keep thinking a fishtail chisel would be good to have. I haven't actually needed one enough to get around to buying one. I think if I ever do I'd give Pfeil a close look. I'd guess you have better access to European brands we don't regularly see here in the US many of which might offer you better value. Not that Blue Spruce aren't works of art!

Good luck & have fun!

[Dean Arthur]

I use the LN honing guide as a jig to hollow grind my plane irons (and occasionally chisels). Ian Kirby published a book called "Sharpening with Waterstones" and had this tool rest design in it. Setup blocks under the grinder let me set the property distance for the 25 degree primary bevel and off you go - perfect every time. The subtle thing you can often miss is how hard modern steels (like pm-v11 or a2) are. Establishing a bevel on an old Stanley plane iron isn't really that much work. But with LV or LN irons it's another story. In my opinion a grinder is almost a necessity with these modern irons if you value your time at all.

Have to learn to freehand, of course. It's quick, effective and eventually second nature. And for a lot of tools the only way to really get them sharpened. But for establishing primary bevel or dialing in the angle of bevel up plane blades the LN guide is certainly a gem and, considering how much it gets used, a good value.

[Jim Matthews]

I use an Atoma 400 to flatten my stones (both oil stones and water stones) cleaning it with Simple Green and a brass wire brush.

Be advised that the modern sintered steels like PM V-11 can "hold" a wire edge that only stropping or power buffing can remove.

Not mentioned in your pick list is handle style.
If possible, taking an introduction course (I know, *more school*) can offer a chance to try things out.

While many top shelf tools hold value - there are many that sound useful but might just gather dust.

I regularly refer to Derek Cohen's excellent compendium for us and it's worthwhile to have a browse as he's documented both his struggle and success.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/

[Tim Best]

the reason I am gung ho on a sharpening jig is the lack of experience - I don't know anyone who can let me experience a truly sharp tool - I figured the best way to develop a high standard is to experience one.

Hi Assaf,

You have received some great advice from some awesome, experienced wood workers--I will add my .02 cents as a relative newcomer that is neither. I like water stones for free hand sharpening.

Stones and honing guides:
I started out with an eclipse-style honing guide, but quickly ditched it. There was nothing wrong with it, but it did not play nicely with my water stones and it was kind of "fiddly." For my antique Stanley irons, I sharpen the entire bevel (3000, 6000, 8000). 8000 is a King Ice Bear (I like it a lot. The other two are no-name stones, but they do a great job). After the 8000, I strop for a spectacular edge. I flatten the water stones on a 400 grit diamond stone that I picked up somewhere.

My point is that you can get a great edge on 01 steel without a Shapton or a honing guide. Bigger point: Get a piece of horse butt leather for a strop and some honing compound. It will take your edge to another level. (Coincidentally, stropping will also occasionally cause bald spots to appear on your forearm)

I fully understand your point about developing a high standard of sharp and actually knowing what sharp is/feels like. I cannot sharpen as fast or as well as some, but I can get the sharpness I need for the task at hand. Trust me, you will know what sharp(er) is every time you sharpen and take your chisels/edge tools to the wood. Initially, when in doubt, freed hand a chisel and pare some end grain. Rinse and repeat for a bit and it becomes obvious pretty quickly. Get a honing guide and be prepared to outgrow it pretty fast.

Chisels:

Along with the ones you mention, I would suggest buying some cheap ones with wood handles. They are fun to experiment with when learning how to sharpen. Also, if you butcher the cheap ones, no harm is really done. Cheap also make great candidates for "unicorning."

I am sure Veritas and Blue Spruce are great chisels, but I do not own any...yet. I recently purchase a couple of Narex Richter chisels. I really like them. They sharpen well and hold an edge. I also like the handles (some do not, but they fit my hand well.) Narex may be easier to get in Israel because they are of European origin. At the very least, they may get to you faster than the others you mentioned. Main point: No matter what you end up with, get one from each manufacturer (LN, LV, Narex, antique vintage, etc.). You will probably stumble on something you really like and things you do not.

Last thing: I really enjoy using my router plane. Mine is a Record 071. I had the opportunity to work/play with a Veritas router plane a few weeks ago. It is a great tool with some obvious refinements to the traditional Stanley/Record pattern. That said, I would not trade mine for the LV version.

Ok, really last thing...mazel tov!

Tim

[George Wall]

I found the Lie Nielsen honing guide helpful for sharpening plane irons when I was trying to figure out the whole sharpening thing. However, I quickly learned to ditch it when doing chisels in favor of freehand sharpening. Within reason, the angle at which you sharpen chisels does not make a huge difference; being off by a couple or few degrees from 25 or 30 is not that big of a deal. You'll find yourself getting more consistent as you gain practice. I still use my guide for bevel up planes and my fine smoothing plane blade.

I like diamond stones; no flattening required. But if you already have the water stones, they'll do fine. One of these days I will try oilstones because they seem really cool.

[Jim Koepke]

The great thing about inexpensive chisels is there is no remorse when experimenting.

This chisel cost me a buck or two. It was given a 90º bevel as seen on a Youtube video:

90º Bevel Chisel in Use.jpg

It works like a one tooth float.

Others have made fistail chisels. A pair eacy of my spare 1/2" & 1/4" chisels were given skewed edges for use when paring, especially half blind dovetails.

A one inch chisel purchase in a lot of chisels came with a rounded edge. It works great for cutting finger catches on sliding box tops and can also cut a flute with a little care.

Lots of uses for spare chisels including a set for working on dirty wood or out side.

jtk

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Thank you everyone for the Valuable input (capital V intended)!

I spent 6 months as a visitor before I decided to pay to be a contributor - and it was totally worth it. the support I've gotten here has been very helpful. I think I will end up using the Atoma 400 Diamond Stone instead of the DMT DIA-FLAT.

It has been a long time since I have been in Isreal; over 20 years! Fun times. I made a snowman near Jerusalem, and before that it was a sand storm.

If you make it back to Ohio, let me know.

Andrew - you came at a crazy time. I don't live in Jerusalem, but I can count only a relatively few times where we had decent snow over there. When I get back Stateside I will definitely see who I get to meet.

I use an Atoma 400 to flatten my stones (both oil stones and water stones) cleaning it with Simple Green and a brass wire brush.

Be advised that the modern sintered steels like PM V-11 can "hold" a wire edge that only stropping or power buffing can remove.

Not mentioned in your pick list is handle style.
If possible, taking an introduction course (I know, *more school*) can offer a chance to try things out.

While many top shelf tools hold value - there are many that sound useful but might just gather dust.

I regularly refer to Derek Cohen's excellent compendium for us and it's worthwhile to have a browse as he's documented both his struggle and success.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/

Jim - I am a student. I can tell you that *School* wont ever end for me. you won't here me give a lot of medical advice (especially at this point of my career) but here is one: if you ever meet a doctor who thinks they are is done learning - find another one!
we do have a couple of schools, but they are expensive and my work doesn't give me that kind of flexibility.
I actually wanted to ask about handle style (specifically because Blue Spruce offers so many) but felt I already overloaded the thread with requests.

I am familiar with Derek Cohen's Blog for a while now. His continued presence here was part of why I joined the Creek!

I would love for your input on handle shape, as I have virtually no experience on the matter - I know that Derek seems to like long handles in general. My intuition says that paring chisels that shouldn't be hit by a mallet would do better with the round ones, better feedback from the base of the hand?

[Jim Koepke]

I actually wanted to ask about handle style (specifically because Blue Spruce offers so many) but felt I already overloaded the thread with requests.

I am familiar with Derek Cohen's Blog for a while now. His continued presence here was part of why I joined the Creek!

I would love for your input on handle shape, as I have virtually no experience on the matter - I know that Derek seems to like long handles in general. My intuition says that paring chisels that shouldn't be hit by a mallet would do better with the round ones, better feedback from the base of the hand?

Don't worry about overloading the thread. Future readers will treasure the information. One of my reasons for prefering socket chisels is the ease of fitting a handle:

Five Chisel Handles.jpg

A few handle designs were blended to make these to fit my hands and to be comfortable using with an old injury to my right hand. These and slight variations of these work well for me.

Anyone interested in the 'perfect' handle may want to find a lathe and turn their own.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

Doc, I am confident you will pass all your tests based on your responses in this thread; so maybe early congratulations, but as a 24 year RN I can usually tell who is and isn't going to make it. Congratulations.

One question I haven't seen asked is what wood working is it that you want do? "I am not sure yet" is a perfectly fine and appropriate answer. The internet is awash with information for beginners. Flooded. Overwhelmingly saturated. I was where you are now about 2, 2.5 years ago, just information overload and no wood working getting done.

I personally settled on a book by Paul Sellers. Here is some projects, with pictures and step by step instructions, and here is an illustrated list of all the tools you need to make all the projects in this book. By choosing that path (may not work for you) I was able to focus my tool purchases and start making stuff. Now I design my own stuff and have quite a few other tools. Paul also has about a gazillion hours of video on youtube if you get stuck. His is not the only path to critical mass, but it was effective for me.

When you buy from Lee Valley or Lie-Neilsen, your tools are going to have significant resale value. If you don't like them you will be able to get most of your money back out, minus shipping.

I can't help with water stones. My shop gets below freezing with depressing regularity, so water stones aren't an option for me. My honing guides work fine on my diamond stones.

I do have both a generic Eclipse style honing guide, and a L-N honing guide with a couple extra sets of guide blocks. If you have the money, skip the generic Eclipse style, start with the LN and be prepared to add on other stuff later. I thought I was able to freehand my chisels once upon a time, but I ended up confessing and repenting of that blindspot in a thread here. Note Bene: If you have the long jaws for your LN honing guide a (regular, flat) Veritas spoke shave iron will snuggle right in there no problem.

FWIW my sharpening regimen starts with a powered grinding wheel for changing bevels or serious clean up, and then 300 grit and 600 grit before I get to 1000. If you are sure you will never drop an iron onto a concrete floor you can probably get away with a 1000 stone as your "coarse." I am kinda thinking about picking up an Atoma at 240 grit for those times when 300 isn't coarse enough but I don't want to go to the grinder. No experience with water stones.

My honest answer to your item three is I have no idea. I have the L-N guide, but no chisels by any of Ray Isles, Blue Spruce or Veritas. All my chisels are either L-N or vintage with parallel sides that work in the LN guide.

For item four, I don't own one. Dovetails are still some kind of sorcery to me. I mean I can make the regular ones good enough to be stout, but I lay mine out big enough to get into the corners with a regular chisel. My inclination would be to get one fairly small one and keep it wicked sharp. In a wooden box of it's own with a velvet lining to protect it between uses. Maybe a mysterious symbol carved into the lid. Wax seal. Incense.

You must have some kind of plan if you are going for a skew block plane and a medium shoulder plane and a full sized router plane right off the starting line. I have a medium shoulder plane for making those fussy joints at the bow of lapstrake boats where each strake comes into the cutwater named after I don't remember what. Skew planes require precision you are capable of, but a high maintenance path if there is some other tool that can do the job.

Look forward to hearing what your goals are.

You will need a bench. It won't be your last bench. Just figure out what bench you need to meet your current needs, and build it as a means to finishing current and foreseen projects knowing in advance you will be building another work bench in the future.

[Jim Matthews]

I would love for your input on handle shape, as I have virtually no experience on the matter - I know that Derek seems to like long handles in general. My intuition says that paring chisels that shouldn't be hit by a mallet would do better with the round ones, better feedback from the base of the hand?

I'm older, and my hands show signs of arthritis.
My choice for handles is based mainly on this.

In my opinion, it's down to preference and there's (unfortunately) no way to know without handling one.

I think the simpler designs are better.

If grip is a concern, the finish of plain wooden handles may be modified. Plasticized, acrylic infused or polymer handles will always be smooth - and slippery.

I just purchased a new set of Narex "stubby" chisels for rough use on my bench because of the doorknob shaped wooden handles.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....712&highlight=

[Tom M King]

Thank you,

I have found some suppliers, its just... expensive - Maple is almost $11 a board foot (no grades here either)!
I did buy a used Stanley no. 4 1/2 (made in the UK) when I managed to find one for sale that I could see before I bought it (it needs sharpening).
The Roubo I am trying to build is a much shorter bench - 64" - due to space constrictions and it will be knock down. I think I could move it in pieces in a car...
what limitations do you feel are in the Roubo design?

If you will send me the plane iron, and chipbreaker to your 4-1/2, I'll sharpen, and prepare them for you, and send them back to you for no charge, including shipping. That way, you can experience what a sharp tool can do. If interested, PM me, and I'll give you my shipping address.

[Kevin Adams]

If you will send me the plane iron, and chipbreaker to your 4-1/2, I'll sharpen, and prepare them for you, and send them back to you for no charge, including shipping. That way, you can experience what a sharp tool can do. If interested, PM me, and I'll give you my shipping address.

What a great community this is and I mean community in the true sense! We learn from each other, support each other, and want the best for each other. You’re a good man, Tom.

Thanks.
Kevin

[Jeff Bartley]

The typical Roubo legs are permanently attached, it’s a feature of the design. The front vise is a disaster, it has very little down space for a board when cutting dovetails or anything else. The front vise hardware is large, cumbersome and often expensive. The end vise is just a travelling dog, often just a round peg. The dog holes are often round. It is designed to look impressive but the functionality is limited.

William, with respect, I will disagree with most of the above. There are so many different types of vises and so many ways to build a roubo style bench, generalized statements about functionality and cost do not apply.

In this discussion we have a new woodworker seeking advise (welcome Assaf!) and I don’t want him to get the wrong idea about a bench. It would be helpful to say that there are a hundred ways to hold work and a hundred ways to build a bench. What a bench needs is to be stable and unmovable under normal operations. Any big bench can do that.

To speak about the functionality of front vises I will say that the leg vise on my bench was built with a $40 screw from Lee Valley. It’s held small work up to full size exterior doors. Lined with leather it will not let go. My only regret is that I didn’t spring for the Benchcrafted hardware like I did for the wagon vise. At some point I plan to upgrade my front vise to the Benchcrafted leg vise with the criss-cross.

[Matt Lau]

What a great community this is and I mean community in the true sense! We learn from each other, support each other, and want the best for each other. You’re a good man, Tom.

Thanks.
Kevin

Yup. Hope all is well for everyone