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Thread: Seeking advice: Sharpening kit and chisels

  1. #1
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    Seeking advice: Sharpening kit and chisels

    Hi everyone, I'm new here (first post) . I know this has come up a lot but I figured it's better to ask advice before I blow though my savings than after. So here it goes:

    For about ten years now I've been dreaming about getting into real woodworking, in a few months I'll be out of medschool and finaly have a bit of time (and money) before residency to try and build a kit.

    For sharpening I was looking at the Dia-flat 95 and shapton ceramic stones (korumako) grits 1000, 5000 and 12000. I definetly want a honing guide. I was thinking of buying the Lie Nielsen honing guide. Starting out I will need to sharpen lie Nielsen bench planes, and Veritas pmv-11 chisels. Moving forward I would (possible) in the future add Veritas skew block plane, large router and medium shoulder planes. I also plan on one fishtail chisel (blue spruce), and mortise chisels (Ray Iles). I realize the honing guide won't be usable with Veritas skewed planes.

    TL: DR

    1. What do you guys think of the sharpening stones as a set?
    2. What do you think of the DMT DIA-FLAT 95?
    3. Will the LN honing guide handle Veritas chisels? Blue Spruce Fishtail chisels? Ray Iles Mortise Chisels? If not is there a good alternative to considure?
    4. What fishtail chisel size should I get?

    All advise will be very welcome. At this stage I would rather not give up using a honing guide.
    Last edited by Assaf Oppenheimer; 02-15-2021 at 4:20 AM.

  2. Quote Originally Posted by Assaf Oppenheimer View Post
    1. What do you guys think of the sharpening stones as a set?
    2. What do you think of the DMT DIA-FLAT 95?
    3. Will the LN honing guide handle Veritas chisels? Blue Spruce Fishtail chisels? Ray Iles Mortise Chisels? If not is there a good alternative to considure?
    4. What fishtail chisel size should I get?
    TLDR : you chose the "best in class" options, so you can’t really go wrong but it will be expensive.

    1. 1000 shapton can be replaced with a good 1000-1200 diamond stone.
    2. The dia flat is coarse and your 1000-1200 diamond stone will flatten your 5000 / 12000 shapton just fine.
    3. Yes for veritas, no for the rest, because of thickness or lack of parallel flat sides. No alternative to recommend.
    4. It depends on your dovetails size. 3/8 should be small enough for most cases.

    I would recommend you only buy a good bench chisels set. Mortise and fishtail chisel are specialty tools. Less is more

    I cut the dovetail shape on a regular 10mm chisel, which makes it easy to set on a guide. It doesn’t see much action and is rarely sharpened anyway.

  3. #3
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    Welcome Assaf. I know lots of Doctors, they have little time for anything! One surgeon manages a painting now and then!

    You can do some woodwork with very little so go slow and see how much time you have. I started many years back with one jack plane, two saws, a cheap set of chisels and a double sided stone. After many years of collecting and getting a decent bench, table saw etc all was stolen from a storage unit during a move (everything!). So I have some experience starting again!

    Diamond stones wear out, we all have them but water stones give a fresh surface and last a long time (don’t buy double sided). A CBN plate will flatten your stones just fine, they are pricey however.

    Having a huge variety of chisels I appreciate the benefits of each but a simple set will do a lot, not too thick for detail work. Ray Isles mortice chisels are productive, cutting the sides as they go but are rather specialised.

    Look at simple bow saws, they do a lot and encourage your skill. A dovetail saw and you are good to go.

    Yes sharpen with a guide for planes, chisels are less fussy.

    Build a simple heavy bench, search on Moravian here, it’s moveable and efficient. You are young and will be moving!
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  4. #4
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    I purchased a lot of things that I do not use (or that sat for years before I used them) based on the projects I was working. I have heard people say that I should purchase the tools that I need for the job that I want to do when I need them.

    I own the Ray Iles Mortise Chisels, I like mine, but I rarely cut mortises. I have never attempted to sharpen them using a guide so I cannot comment on how that works. But I guess I am taking things out of order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assaf Oppenheimer View Post
    For sharpening I was looking at the Dia-flat 95 and shapton ceramic stones (korumako) grits 1000, 5000 and 12000.
    I have owned and used the DIA stones to flatten my water stones for years, I like them.

    Sounds like a decent range for the Shapton stones. I could send you lots to read about the Shapton stones, not sure I should just fill this thread with pages of information....

    I am curious why the PRO stones and not the glass stones. I own both. I purchased some PRO stones to learn to sharpen kitchen knives and the logic was a larger stone should last longer.

    The Shapton Pro stones are Harder and release abrasive slower, they are formulated for more basic alloy blends of stainless and carbon steel. The Pro line is special in that each stone is formulated for a specific task that I first found on the jende industries web site. No idea if it is still there. (https://jendeindustries.wpcomstaging...-glass-series/ and https://jendeindustries.wpcomstaging...-glass-stones/)
    The Glass series is considered Softer and releases abrasive faster allowing them to cut faster. This is where the density difference comes in, the Glass stones are more dense than the pro stones making them seem harder yet still called "softer" because they wear quicker.
    The Glass stones don't have the same specific stone to steel formulation as the Pro's, they are simply made to be able to sharpen very hard and highly alloyed steels. These stones were originally made for the specific purpose of sharpening high end wood working chisels and that is why they are hard and promote flatness so much in the advertising. There is a recommendation chart for different Glass stones that I can send you if you want (if you do not find one online).
    GlassStones were developed specifically for the US market based upon experience gained from the Pro Series. GlassStones differ in that they cut more quickly in the tougher steels such as cryogenically treated A2 common in Lie-Nielsen and Hock and Veritas blades. They are also engineered to be more economical by employing a glass base.
    On the other hand, the Shapton Pro Stones feel more like traditional waterstones in use and are more tolerant of coarse flattening plates like the DMT DiaFlat-95 product which produces excellent results.
    So, I purchased my PRO stones for my knives and my Glass stones for my wood working tools. And then I just use whatever I have near by; well, mostly. I own a lot of stones.

    If you want to sharpen coarser than the 1000 stone, you can always use sandpaper on glass (scary sharp), that is how I started sharpening. I don't think that I have ever used a guide on a water stone, I would need to think about that. I used the guide often with sand paper and the larger surface. I think lots of people use guides on water stones though.

    This is what my notes say about the PRO stones.

    The Orange #1000 is a very popular intermediate stone. Great for moderate stock removal. This stone is good to use prior to polishing. This stone is labeled Coarse/Medium, and is formulated for stainless steel.

    The Wine #5000 stone is the first polishing stone. It can still remove some metal but is primary a polishing stone. It is more dense than most stones. This stone is pivotal in the Shapton pro series. It is a dense stone that produces the first mirror finish. It sets the stage for the finer polishing stones while producing an excellent edge for most conventional knives and tools. Some people do not like the feel of the 5000 PRO. It was one of my first stones for knife sharpening and I have sharpened a lot of blades on it.


    The Yellow #12000 was originally designed for fine woodworking tools requiring an extremely fine edge. It will leave a bright mirror finish. It is a serious polishing stone. This stone takes everything even further. It is a “softer” stone and really puts a wonderful finish on an edge. (The Japanese version of this stone is the 12K. The only difference seems to be the packaging.

    I own the 16000 Glass stone and I love it, but I would probably not get both the 12K PRO and the 16K Glass. The 16K glass is not listed as great for chisels, but I used it well for years before I read that.

    If you live near someone who can let you try them, that would be preferred.

    I like to put a hollow grind on my tools (Tormek is what i use) and then free hand the blade. It is much easier to free hand with a hollow grind on the edge. I have a friend who comes over a couple of times a year and we touch up his edges so that he can then go home and free hand to keep them there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Assaf Oppenheimer View Post
    I definitely want a honing guide. I was thinking of buying the Lie Nielsen honing guide.
    I have owned the Lee valley guide for years. I expect the Lie Nielsen guide will server you well.



    Quote Originally Posted by Assaf Oppenheimer View Post
    Starting out I will need to sharpen lie Nielsen bench planes, and Veritas pmv-11 chisels. Moving forward I would (possible) in the future add Veritas skew block plane, large router and medium shoulder planes. I also plan on one fishtail chisel (blue spruce), and mortise chisels (Ray Iles). I realize the honing guide won't be usable with Veritas skewed planes.
    I really like my Veritas PMV-11 chisels. You will likely be happy with your Veritas or Lie Nielsen planes. Blue Spruce makes great stuff.

    The chisels I purchased as a set. My planes I purchased mostly one at a time. What will you do with them? Use that to determine what to purchase first. On the plus side, everything you mention here is easy to resell if you find that you will not use them. Will you start by dimensioning wood wood by hand? If so, do you need a #40 scrub plane? Have you ever dimensioned wood by hand? Will you purchase already dimensioned wood? I still remember that first block of wood that I figured I wanted to make flat. Wow, what a lot of work. And I needed a work bench to be able to do it.

    If you just want to clean up some joints, then you do not need a bunch of hand planes, perhaps just a few.

    I own a butt mortise plane that I use for hinges (https://www.lie-nielsen.com/products/butt-mortise-plane) but I can probably as easily use a router plane. I only recently purchased a router plane so I have not used it for hinges yet.

    I still do not own a fishtail chisel. I use my smaller chisels to get into corners.

    What do I not see here?

    Saw. I don't know if you need to break-down wood, if you have a table saw, a chop saw, or what. If you want to do dovetails or mortises, for certain you need a saw to do that. I own some high end saws, but the Lee Valley is a great saw for the money, I like mine.

    I do not see a marking knife. I own one from Blue Spruce (very nice) and some from Lee Valley (not as nice, but way cheaper and I use them all the time).

    Do you have a square? How will you mark dovetails if you want to cut them? I use a cheap gauge from Lee Valley, but you can use lots of things to do it.

    If you want to ponder the sharpening stones, I started with sand paper on a granite block. Not expensive, but long term, stones are cheaper. I did not try power assist for sharpening until I needed to sharpen a large batch of chisels, and it was taking forever to do it by hand. New chisels from Lee Valley will not take long to get going, I was tuning old chisels in bad shape.

    After I got my Tormek, I was able to set my angles and I mostly stopped using my angle guide. I still use sand paper to flatten backs that are not great from the start (old blades, not new Lie Nielsen of Lee Valley). I was given a new plane from a different company and that was really bad on the back.

    Hope this helps at least a little.

    And you do not list your location, if you are near the center of Ohio, I have some stuff that you can try!

    Andrew

  5. #5
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    Thank you both, I've been on this site as a visitor for more than a year, so it is a pleasure to finally participate (and even more so to get help). I feel like I need to clarify a few things:

    1) I live in Israel, a country with no natural forestry and almost no interest in woodworking - this means everything needs to be imported and takes weeks to get here. I usually don't get to test things at a store or with woodworking friends. My mindset is to buy something once and not "upgrade" as I go forward.

    2) In Israel, after med school, in order to get into a residency you need to complete an internship year. only after that year do I get a my license. That year is usually more relaxed (50 hour work week). That is what I meant by finally having time. in a year an a half I will start a residency and wont see home for the next 6 years. I really wanted to build a Roubo Split top workbench as my first project so that I would have the space to do my second project.

    3) The list I posted isn't what I'm buying right now - I posted the various items to learn more for futureproofing. I completely agree that I can do a little with a lot. in fact what I am buying right now are 2 chisels (3/4 and 1/4) ,1 fishtail chisel for the half blind dovetails, and a L-N Low angle Jack plane. what I want to do is make sure I can get the best edge on the tools I have, that is a place I feel is worth spending the money.

    Jerome mentioned that the DIA-FLAT 95 is too coarse for the Shaptons I want - should I order an atoma 400? I've seen them mentioned online but haven't seen any information on there flatness (which is the reason I was inclined to go with the DMT DIA-FLAT).

    cheers,
    Assaf

  6. #6
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    LOL I think I was writing my reply to the other contributors while you wrote yours. I really appreciate the offer but sadly its been 5-6 years since I've been in Ohio and I don't see flying internationally an option in the next year or so . I didn't mention the gear you listed because I have already taken care of it. I have loaner hand saws and a circular saw. I just bought the basic Veritas marking knife and a Veritas marking gauge. I own a starett 6" combination square and a 4" 6" and 12" machinist squares as well as a 50" straight edge. I have a Shinwa sliding bevel gauges. I managed to get clamps as a loan for the project too.

    I just updated my profile - couldn't figure out how to add the info from my phone.
    I really do appreciate the input I've been getting.

    Assaf

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Assaf Oppenheimer View Post
    . My mindset is to buy something once and not "upgrade" as I go forward.
    I think the biggest mistake you make is the notion that you can discern the best tools and not have to upgrade.

    I have been doing hand woodworking seriously for over fifty years. I have only one of the tools on your list, the LV router plane, which I won in a planing contest in 2006. I think for a beginner a plow plane and a moving fillister are a higher priority than a router.

    The other tools and stones on your list do not impress me. So I recommend going easy and not assume you are making a lifetime purchase.

    For a young doctor, I would expect you to have the facility with your hands to avoid a sharpening jig. If you were 65 and had never done any hand work, I might think differently.

    Welcome to the forum!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    The other tools and stones on your list do not impress me. So I recommend going easy and not assume you are making a lifetime purchase.

    For a young doctor, I would expect you to have the facility with your hands to avoid a sharpening jig. If you were 65 and had never done any hand work, I might think differently.

    Welcome to the forum!

    thanks for the input, honestly I'm trying to get into woodworking, definitely not trying to impress anyone! the reason I am gung ho on a sharpening jig is the lack of experience - I don't know anyone who can let me experience a truly sharp tool - I figured the best way to develop a high standard is to experience one. also - not a doctor (3 months and a whole bunch of tests left to go for that )

  9. #9
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    Assaf, here’s a different idea to think about.
    I agree with lots of your ideas but in Israel there’s a lot of used, older European equipment hand tools. Many of the older people came as skilled tradesmen and their tools are available if you look for them - especially on some of the moshavim.
    They aren’t shiney and metal; many are the wooden planes and gauges, bow saws and things like that, but they’ll be cheaper and faster to get.
    Ask some of your grandfathers aged friends.
    Young enough to remember doing it;
    Old enough to wish I could do it again.

  10. #10
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    Hi Assaf and welcome to the Creek.

    My preferences are on the other end of the spectrum from yours. Not much of my basic tooling was purchased new.

    For me, restoring old tools is as much fun as using them, sometimes more fun.

    What is or isn't the best tool depends on the person using the tool. It all comes down to personal taste and what we are doing. What works best will likely be different for you, me and everyone else.

    It appears you have done a lot of reading and made your choices from what you have learned from other people's experience. That is as good a starting point as any.

    Otherwise you will find almost everyone enjoys spending other people's money.

    Enjoy your free time while you can. Throughout life there just doesn't seem to be enough free time. Even now in retirement my free time passes too fast.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #11
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    Yes Assaf, the buy it once, properly, is something most of us aspire to. For sharpening this clearly works as it will be used very frequently and impacts the quality and ease of work. The low angle jack definitely has uses but the chip breaker planes are a necessity. The number 4 with its short footprint will follow wood variations very well and properly tuned will put the best finish possible on your work.

    The Roubo is an ‘in fashion’ workbench with limitations, not least is moving it! Do take a good look at Ken’s Moravian design on here. The classic Scandinavian bench need not be huge but is very versatile. They were built by the Danes for Scandinavians who then built furniture. This was THE bench at schools in Europe many years ago and the gorgeous furniture school in British Columbia I visited has the students build one as their first project.

    Much as we all like to get tools right the first time, it is a journey and your preferences will change and as many discover that ‘essential’ tool is next to useless.

    Building furniture in a ‘treeless’ country will make you a novelty, but no doubt have challenges. Finding a few reliable suppliers is essential.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  12. #12
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    Thank you,

    I have found some suppliers, its just... expensive - Maple is almost $11 a board foot (no grades here either)!
    I did buy a used Stanley no. 4 1/2 (made in the UK) when I managed to find one for sale that I could see before I bought it (it needs sharpening).
    The Roubo I am trying to build is a much shorter bench - 64" - due to space constrictions and it will be knock down. I think I could move it in pieces in a car...
    what limitations do you feel are in the Roubo design?

  13. #13
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    Welcome aboard and congratulations on finishing one part of your education I recently watched the Rob Cosman videos and purchased the Trend Diamond stone and the 16k Shapton. I am using my 4 & 8k water stones but will over time get the intermediate Shaptons to replace them. I have found his method effective for me and would suggest watching the videos. My planes and chisels are LN. I am using the RC method on the new chisels with very good affect. I also use the LN honing gauge and very much appreciate the consistency it offers me.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assaf Oppenheimer View Post
    LOL I think I was writing my reply to the other contributors while you wrote yours. I really appreciate the offer but sadly its been 5-6 years since I've been in Ohio and I don't see flying internationally an option in the next year or so . I didn't mention the gear you listed because I have already taken care of it. I have loaner hand saws and a circular saw. I just bought the basic Veritas marking knife and a Veritas marking gauge. I own a starett 6" combination square and a 4" 6" and 12" machinist squares as well as a 50" straight edge. I have a Shinwa sliding bevel gauges. I managed to get clamps as a loan for the project too.

    I just updated my profile - couldn't figure out how to add the info from my phone.
    I really do appreciate the input I've been getting.

    Assaf
    It has been a long time since I have been in Isreal; over 20 years! Fun times. I made a snowman near Jerusalem, and before that it was a sand storm.

    If you make it back to Ohio, let me know.

  15. #15
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    The typical Roubo legs are permanently attached, it’s a feature of the design. The front vise is a disaster, it has very little down space for a board when cutting dovetails or anything else. The front vise hardware is large, cumbersome and often expensive. The end vise is just a travelling dog, often just a round peg. The dog holes are often round. It is designed to look impressive but the functionality is limited.
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

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