first round of tools for new lathe

[Stephen White]

As far as carbide, I feel I wasted my money (over $300) on the Woodpeckers. Not that they are not fine tools but because I don't use them much. I will use the round cutter deep inside hollow forms, but it's really grabbie. They mostly just collect dust. I have purchased other carbide tools for special purpose needs. So it's not like carbide has no place in my shop. I just prefer gouges and regular parting tools. You really only need 4 or 5 tools to do most turning: bowl and spindle gouge, parting tool, roughing spindle gouge, and maybe a skew. The skew is versatile, but it can be frustrated to learn how to use it because mistakes often complete ruin the piece. So I would recommend waiting to pick up a skew. Others think just the opposite: start with a skew. If you start with a skew, practice, practice, practice before putting it to expensive wood. And watch Alan Batty's skew video several times. He was the master of that tool.

bummer was hoping carbide was an easy way to get started and deal with sharpening later. Sounds like that wasn't your experience.

[David Bassett]

bummer was hoping carbide was an easy way to get started and deal with sharpening later. Sounds like that wasn't your experience.

I may be one of the biggest proponents of the carbide tools here. (Explicitly ignoring the Hunter tools which are carbide but require the traditional skills and offer traditional advantages! Don't flame me Hunter fans.) But I'd characterize them as more for people who want to make things round without learning to turn. That doesn't sound like you. With skill the traditional tools offer more design options and higher surface finish quality.

[Brian Tymchak]

I had found that, but it doesn't give chuck dimensions anywhere I saw. If the dimensions from scattered internet sites suggesting the Precision Midi and the G3 are the same length and weight are correct, I wouldn't be interested in the Midi with it's tommy bars versus the G3 with it's T-wrench chuck key. OTOH- if it was shorter and saved 1/2" or 3/4" of bed length I'd consider it since I'm sensitive to running out of blank plus tooling space between centers.

Hmm, surprised the site doesn't give any physical data.

Dimensions of my midi: dia = 3.489" , length (to top of jaw slides) = 1.677"
Weight: 2.4 lbs.

Yes, the tommy bars are a bit of a hassle. Would definitely prefer the T wrench.

[David Bassett]

... Dimensions of my midi: dia = 3.489" , length (to top of jaw slides) = 1.677"
Weight: 2.4 lbs. ...

Thanks. That's roughly the same size as the G3, but I'm not confident my numbers for it are good. Both seem to be slightly smaller diameter and roughly 1-1/2" shorter than the SuperNova2. I guess I'm not really sure how much it matters.

[Stephen White]

I may be one of the biggest proponents of the carbide tools here. (Explicitly ignoring the Hunter tools which are carbide but require the traditional skills and offer traditional advantages! Don't flame me Hunter fans.) But I'd characterize them as more for people who want to make things round without learning to turn. That doesn't sound like you. With skill the traditional tools offer more design options and higher surface finish quality.

Thanks, that is exactly what I was trying to figure out. It is hard to separate whether someone that is not a carbide fan is exaggerating the lack of finish quality. I see lot of post on different boards and here say that they wanted to give carbide a chance but they felt they just didn't end up in the same place with the final finish.

[John K Jordan]

Thanks, that is exactly what I was trying to figure out. It is hard to separate whether someone that is not a carbide fan is exaggerating the lack of finish quality. I see lot of post on different boards and here say that they wanted to give carbide a chance but they felt they just didn't end up in the same place with the final finish.

Best thing for you to do might be visit a local turner and get a demonstration and maybe try them yourself, the conventional tools, flat-topped carbide, and Hunter carbide. I sometimes have people come to my shop try out different tools before they buy since I keep a variety (including most of the Hunter tools + conventional tools). However, as I mentioned, I got rid of the flat-topped carbide so I can't show people a comparison.

However, there are turners in our club who have both. Many bought Hunter tools after seeing and feeling the difference in club demos. I suspect nearly any club in the country will have members with one or the other or both types.

JKJ

[David Walser]

Thanks, that is exactly what I was trying to figure out. It is hard to separate whether someone that is not a carbide fan is exaggerating the lack of finish quality. I see lot of post on different boards and here say that they wanted to give carbide a chance but they felt they just didn't end up in the same place with the final finish.

Stephen -- I cannot speak for anyone else, but I've owned carbide tools (of the EWT type) since the mid-2000's. I have both square and round cutter versions. This was well before EWT released their tools. Mine were made by a guy in New Mexico. He took off-the-shelf carbide cutters and mounted them onto 1/2" mild-steel round rods. He then put a golf grip on the end of the rod. The tools feel good in the hand and work every bit as well as an EWT with the same size cutter. (I bought an EWT to see if they worked better than what I already had. Nope.)

I didn't spend money on these tools in the hopes that they wouldn't work for me as well as traditional tools. Nor did I buy them so I could produce a YouTube video or write a blog post showing the differences between the two types of tools. I did it because I was a relatively new turner and I had yet to master sharpening. (I was still using a high-speed 6" bench grinder with the original gray wheels. It's hard to get good results with that equipment.) The attraction of being able to turn without sharpening is why I bought my carbide tools. In other words, I desperately wanted the tools to work!

However, while I was frustrated with sharpening, I DID get my tools sharp and I knew the results I could achieve with a sharp traditional tool. So, I was never satisfied with the carbide tools. They are good for roughing cuts. But, frankly, I can remove more material more quickly with my skew or spindle roughing gouge using a pealing cut. And, the surface left by the skew or SRG will be better than the carbide tools would leave. So, my traditional tools are better for roughing cuts.

Where, then, do carbide tools fit in my personal turning tool arsenal? If I'm turning something that's particularly abrasive so that it very quickly dulls my traditional tools, I reach for the carbide tools. Also, I use my carbide tools when cutting resins. (Since I cast my own blanks, I frequently use my carbide tools.) Generally, resins respond well to scraping cuts and not as well to bevel riding cuts. So, scrapers -- including flat-top carbide tools -- are what I use with resins. However, I'm switching out the flat-top carbide cutters for negative rake carbide cutters. These work even better.

My point in saying all of this is I think you are misreading what you are seeing written on this subject. I believe there are fan-boys of flat-top carbide tools. They really want to believe they get just as good a result as someone else could with a traditional tool. On the other side of the debate are those who have tried carbides and found them wanting. It's not a 'real turners use traditional tools', or 'traditional tools were good enough for my grandpa and they're good enough for me', kind of thing. Turners are very quick to adopt new and better ways of getting things done. That's why we use scroll chucks instead of faceplates and why variable speed lathes are so popular. If I had gotten great results with my carbide tools, they'd be my go to tools. I didn't and they are not.

[Stephen White]

My point in saying all of this is I think you are misreading what you are seeing written on this subject. I believe there are fan-boys of flat-top carbide tools. They really want to believe they get just as good a result as someone else could with a traditional tool. On the other side of the debate are those who have tried carbides and found them wanting. It's not a 'real turners use traditional tools', or 'traditional tools were good enough for my grandpa and they're good enough for me', kind of thing. Turners are very quick to adopt new and better ways of getting things done. That's why we use scroll chucks instead of faceplates and why variable speed lathes are so popular. If I had gotten great results with my carbide tools, they'd be my go to tools. I didn't and they are not.

No I think I get it, sounds like carbide certainly has it's place but they are not a good replacement for traditional tools. I was originally hoping they were an alternative and I would just skip the whole sharpening routine but from your post as well as others that just does not seem to be true.

It seems like since the way you hold the tools and the way you cut is different between them that maybe I should just get a set of each and work with all of them as I learn so that I know how to turn with both but I'm tempted to go with carbide first for a few months so I can compartmentalize some of this since I literally know nothing. It's not money but just wanting to learn a few basics and get started.

What you would recommend?

[Stephen White]

Best thing for you to do might be visit a local turner and get a demonstration and maybe try them yourself, the conventional tools, flat-topped carbide, and Hunter carbide. I sometimes have people come to my shop try out different tools before they buy since I keep a variety (including most of the Hunter tools + conventional tools). However, as I mentioned, I got rid of the flat-topped carbide so I can't show people a comparison.

However, there are turners in our club who have both. Many bought Hunter tools after seeing and feeling the difference in club demos. I suspect nearly any club in the country will have members with one or the other or both types.

JKJ

I don't disagree with the advice but my lathe is on its way and with the pandemic I am not doing things like this right now so I am going to go the self teaching route with lots and lots of YouTube hours watching videos. Not the best I know but all I have right now.

[Stephen White]

Hmm, surprised the site doesn't give any physical data.

Dimensions of my midi: dia = 3.489" , length (to top of jaw slides) = 1.677"
Weight: 2.4 lbs.

Yes, the tommy bars are a bit of a hassle. Would definitely prefer the T wrench.

Not sure about this exchange but I am trying to understand which chuck system is the right one for my Midi with zero thought to using it on any other one later. It seems like to G3 and SN2 are for bigger lathes and need an adapter to run on mine? So far the link from one of you guys to nova: NOVA CHUCK PRECISION MIDI DIRECT THREAD 1″ X 8TPI (SKU 48111 AND 71028)

is really the only reference I have found. My internet is up and down but trying to do more research. This product says it fits the full range of nova chuck accessories but still don't really get if it will fit my rikon 70-220

[tom lucas]

Not sure about this exchange but I am trying to understand which chuck system is the right one for my Midi with zero thought to using it on any other one later. It seems like to G3 and SN2 are for bigger lathes and need an adapter to run on mine? So far the link from one of you guys to nova: NOVA CHUCK PRECISION MIDI DIRECT THREAD 1″ X 8TPI (SKU 48111 AND 71028)


is really the only reference I have found. My internet is up and down but trying to do more research. This product says it fits the full range of nova chuck accessories but still don't really get if it will fit my rikon 70-220

Either chuck is fine for your Midi. Any chuck that is not directly threaded requires an adapter. This is so that one chuck can be used on lathes with different spindles by simply buying another adapter. Chucks can be purchased direct threaded, with an adapter, or without an adapter. The trend lately with NOVA is without the adapter. Then you just buy the adapter separately. I suspect this is driven in part by marketing, and in part by inventory overhead. They appear cheaper because no adapter is included, and htye are easier to package and stock because it's a single chuck variant, not 3, 4, or more for all the adapter types. My suggestion is the SN2 is the better all around chuck: bit heavier duty to handle larger items, and better keying mechanism. But the G3 is a great value too.

[David Bassett]

... It seems like to G3 and SN2 are for bigger lathes and need an adapter to run on mine? ...

Sorry we've confused you. Unfortunately precise information seems unavailable online. I pretty sure we figured out the Precision Midi is the same size as the G3 chuck. The G3 will be nicer to use, but depending on sales etc. seems to be a little more. The SN2 is bigger. It works like the G3, but has nicer features. It should also work fine on your lathe and I'd say is definitely better on bigger lathes. It also seems to be a common size that is available from other makers, perhaps at a better price or with better quality.

Adapter is almost orthogonal. It might be better described as an insert as it has outside threads that match a large threaded hole in the chuck and fits mostly inside the chuck body. It then has inside threads that match one of the various lathe standards. (Teknatool actually sells a threaded plug that fits their chucks so you can have a machinist bore and thread the lathe side to match a non-standard lathe.) They work very well and provide some future proofing, but they add 1/4" to 3/8" to the chuck's height. You have to decide what tradeoffs you want to make. I think I'd go with a direct attach G3 if I was worried about running out of bed length and a SN2 with adapter if I wasn't.

BTW- Adapter is also used to mean something that goes between the lathe and the chuck. I've never seen one used or recommended, and they don't look like they'd work all that well. (To see an example, the direct fitting chucks on the Teknatool pages have links saying saying something like "only compatible with".)

[David Walser]

I would recommend going with traditional tools, first. Then, after you're comfortable using traditional tools, if you feel the need, add some carbide tools (which may include the Hunter carbide tools) to your arsenal. The skills required to use traditional tools are easily transferred to the use of flat-top carbide tools.

[Prashun Patel]

The g3 can be purchased with a 1x8 insert. I used one successfully for years. Then I got a larger lathe and used an adapter to make that insert and chuck fit my 1 1/4 spindle. It’s a good chuck.

[Stephen White]

Either chuck is fine for your Midi. Any chuck that is not directly threaded requires an adapter. This is so that one chuck can be used on lathes with different spindles by simply buying another adapter. Chucks can be purchased direct threaded, with an adapter, or without an adapter. The trend lately with NOVA is without the adapter. Then you just buy the adapter separately. I suspect this is driven in part by marketing, and in part by inventory overhead. They appear cheaper because no adapter is included, and htye are easier to package and stock because it's a single chuck variant, not 3, 4, or more for all the adapter types. My suggestion is the SN2 is the better all around chuck: bit heavier duty to handle larger items, and better keying mechanism. But the G3 is a great value too.

ha got some power,

OK that makes sense. Nova has a G3 chuck and bowl turning bundle with 1x8tpi. I want to start with wine stems and small under 12" bowls and this would get me started on bowls.

I have read several places that the bundles are good deals on getting some stuff included.

also is a supernove2 anniversary bundle, sounds like I need the 1x8 adapter for that one, will read on it as well

Thanks I feel like I am getting somewhere on the chuck system anyway. Still undecided on starting with a carbide set and inserts and getting sharpening system and steel set later or just buying both now. Haveing internet every few hours the past few days hasn't helped.

Thanks