5 1/4 Stanley to Scrub Plane

[Jeffrey Kalakay]

Jeff, you make no mention of why you are thinking of a scrub plane.

It might also help to know more about what you intend to build and the lumber you use.

It could also be helpful to include your location in your information. You might be close to another member who is willing to let you test drive their scrub plane(s).

Another consideration might be the cost of a scrub plane. A spare blade for your #5-1/4 will cost less than a #40.

jtk

I want a scrub because although I do have access to a jointer and planer at my job, im incredibly drawn to hand tool work. Mainly because I hate the sound of machines (even with ear protection). Plus I want to be able to go through most of the process from start to finish (minus cutting down the tree myself) that i can. Plus a lot of the rough saw lumber in my area from hardwood dealers is cheaper than s4s or s2s, so id like to save as much money as possible while developing a skillset.

Im in San Diego.

[Mike Henderson]

Preparing stock by hand is physically demanding. Many woodworkers use machines to prepare the stock and then do the assembly using hand tools. But knowing how to prepare stock by hand is a good thing to know - it gives you an appreciation for what our (about pre 1825) ancestors had to go through. Although from what I've read, it was the apprentice who had to prepare the stock.

Mike

[You'll need a couple of winding sticks. You can make a set yourself.]

[Jeffrey Kalakay]

Preparing stock by hand is physically demanding. Many woodworkers use machines to prepare the stock and then do the assembly using hand tools. But knowing how to prepare stock by hand is a good thing to know - it gives you an appreciation for what our (about pre 1825) ancestors had to go through. Although from what I've read, it was the apprentice who had to prepare the stock.

Mike

[You'll need a couple of winding sticks. You can make a set yourself.]

Oh, I know its physically demanding, which i think is part of the appeal (im not crazy, I swear) but id like to have the skill just like I can make all sorts of jigs to do joinery with a table saw and/or router, but I determined to develop a hand tool skillset

[Warren Mickley]

Although from what I've read, it was the apprentice who had to prepare the stock.

Kaare Loftheim, after studying 18th century woodworking and working as a cabinetmaker at Williamsburg for forty years, said this "We think that when there was a lot of stock preparation to do everyone in the shop worked at it." I have operated a hand tool only shop full time since 1987 and I agree with him. The truth is that it is a lot easier to teach a teenager to make professional quality dovetails than to do fine stock preparation. Rob Cosman can teach you to make dovetails in a day; he won't teach you to do stock preparation in a day.

If you have an 18th century source suggesting that apprentices did the stock preparation I would be very interested in seeing it. The apprenticeship contract that the master was responsible to teach the boy the art and would receive his labor as compensation. The sooner he could get the boy up and running, the better.

[Charles Guest]

Kaare Loftheim, after studying 18th century woodworking and working as a cabinetmaker at Williamsburg for forty years, said this "We think that when there was a lot of stock preparation to do everyone in the shop worked at it." I have operated a hand tool only shop full time since 1987 and I agree with him. The truth is that it is a lot easier to teach a teenager to make professional quality dovetails than to do fine stock preparation. Rob Cosman can teach you to make dovetails in a day; he won't teach you to do stock preparation in a day.

If you have an 18th century source suggesting that apprentices did the stock preparation I would be very interested in seeing it. The apprenticeship contract that the master was responsible to teach the boy the art and would receive his labor as compensation. The sooner he could get the boy up and running, the better.

Not an 18th century source, but a portion of an article by Mack Headley (Jr.) of Colonial Williamsburg Mack Headley | Eighteenth-Century Cabinet Shops and the Furniture-Making Trades in Newport, Rhode Island | American Furniture 1999 (chipstone.org)

"Townsend would have delegated tasks such as running errands, cleaning the shop, sawing lumber, and preparing stock [emphasis added] to his less experienced apprentices. As their skills improved, they would take on increasingly more difficult jobs. By the end of their term, they would be able to dovetail drawers and carcasses, cut and fit mortise-and-tenon joints, plane moldings, and perform other tasks, though not as quickly as a seasoned journeyman. In larger shops such as John Cahoone’s, some journeymen specialized in production of certain forms. Job Clark, for example, made eight desks in one year. Cahoone paid Clark £12 for making each desk, and he sold them for £36.[18]" End quote. Here's a Master's thesis on Cahoone for anybody interested: https://udspace.udel.edu/bitstream/handle/19716/26688/THE_MARKET_ECONOMY_AND_THE_FUR.pdf?sequence=1&isAl lowed=y

I, for one, can't imagine why you'd teach somebody to dovetail stock they didn't know how to four-square first. It's silly on its face, and completely out of sequence. If somebody is aware of a school anywhere in the world that teaches joinery before stock prep I'd love to hear of them. It makes no sense now, and it made no sense then.

The family firm: Mack S. Headley & Sons (headleyandsons.com) Not sure how involved Mack is -- think this is mostly Jeff (?)

Headley at Williamsburg: Mack Headley: Learning and Teaching 18th Century Craftsmanship - Woodworking | Blog | Videos | Plans | How To (woodworkersjournal.com)

A collection of Mack Headley articles in Fine Woodworking: Mack S. Headley, Jr. - FineWoodworking

[Mike Henderson]

Kaare Loftheim, after studying 18th century woodworking and working as a cabinetmaker at Williamsburg for forty years, said this "We think that when there was a lot of stock preparation to do everyone in the shop worked at it." I have operated a hand tool only shop full time since 1987 and I agree with him. The truth is that it is a lot easier to teach a teenager to make professional quality dovetails than to do fine stock preparation. Rob Cosman can teach you to make dovetails in a day; he won't teach you to do stock preparation in a day.

If you have an 18th century source suggesting that apprentices did the stock preparation I would be very interested in seeing it. The apprenticeship contract that the master was responsible to teach the boy the art and would receive his labor as compensation. The sooner he could get the boy up and running, the better.

I learned how to do stock preparation in a hand tools woodworking class. It's not intellectually hard, it's physically hard. The instructor went through the concepts and watched us as we did the work and answered questions. I know I was able to produce good stock in a day and I think most of the rest of the class was able to, also.

We then took the stock and used it in a (simple) project.

I'm sure that "when there was a lot of stock preparation to do everyone in the shop worked at it." It only makes sense because you can't start building things until you have prepared stock. The statement brings up the next question, "When there wasn't a lot of stock preparation to do, who did it? The apprentice or the master?"

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

I'm sure that "when there was a lot of stock preparation to do everyone in the shop worked at it." It only makes sense because you can't start building things until you have prepared stock. The statement brings up the next question, "When there wasn't a lot of stock preparation to do, who did it? The apprentice or the master?"

This would all likely depend on how a shop was organized. Was lumber purchased when items were ordered or did shops keep a supply on hand? It might have been lumber was ordered by the wagon load then prepped and stored. In the meantime the journeyman workers may have been finishing other orders.

One of the challenges for a shop owner/manager is to keep everyone working either productively or supportively. If someone doesn't have an immediate task, there was likely a list of things needing doing like sweeping, sharpening or prepping stock.

jtk

[Warren Mickley]

[QUOTE=Mike Henderson;3098501]I learned how to do stock preparation in a hand tools woodworking class. It's not intellectually hard, it's physically hard.

/QUOTE]

Apparently you think stock preparation is drudgery and I think it is an art. What might account for that difference?

[Mike Henderson]

[QUOTE=Warren Mickley;3098538]

I learned how to do stock preparation in a hand tools woodworking class. It's not intellectually hard, it's physically hard.

/QUOTE]

Apparently you think stock preparation is drudgery and I think it is an art. What might account for that difference?

It certainly might. I was glad to learn how to do it, but now, I really appreciate my powered jointer and planer for fast, accurate stock preparation.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

This would all likely depend on how a shop was organized. Was lumber purchased when items were ordered or did shops keep a supply on hand? It might have been lumber was ordered by the wagon load then prepped and stored. In the meantime the journeyman workers may have been finishing other orders.

One of the challenges for a shop owner/manager is to keep everyone working either productively or supportively. If someone doesn't have an immediate task, there was likely a list of things needing doing like sweeping, sharpening or prepping stock.

jtk

Even if the shop bought a wagon load of lumber, they would hardly prepare it before they knew what they were going to do with it. I think most cabinet makers in the 1700's worked on individual pieces of furniture - they were not "factories" producing a lot of the same thing. If that was the case, I would only prepare the stock when I had a project for it because different projects might require different preparation.

Mike

[A modern example of this was Sam Maloof. Sam had a big warehouse full of hardwood of all kinds. When he started a project he went into the warehouse with a cart and selected the wood for that project. Some pieces would be thicker than other pieces, and some might be quarter sawn while other pieces might be flat sawn. He chose what worked best, in his judgement, for the project at hand.

I would expect our ancestors would have done the same.]

[Charles Guest]

Read the master's thesis I posted about the economics of Newport furnituremakers. Anybody who thinks that the shop owner of a busy 18th century firm four-squared lumber all day long, if at all, is borderline delusional. Ditto the experienced journeyman in his employ. I'm sure everybody pitched in if there was a big order, but on a day-to-day basis, no.

[steven c newman]

There IS a cheap plane out there....from Harbor Freight...the Windsor No. 33.......wide open mouth, fairly thick single iron.....IF you were to grind a 3" radius on the iron....you now have a very hungry #3 sized hand plane as a Scrub Plane....Slightly wider than the Stanley No. 40....Cost right now? About..$15, counting tax...

[steven c newman]

So.....#5-1/4 for a Scrub Plane, or..just buy either the Stanley No. 40....or one of the "Horned" wood bodied ones from Europe?

Not about HOW one did stock prep 200 years ago....it is more about how one will prep stock next time in the shop...like maybe next weekend?

hmmmm....

[Warren Mickley]

I have spent my life doing hand tool woodworking. What I found was these old 20th century experts had a poor grasp of the trade. That is why I asked for 18th century citations, not the speculations of dilettantes.

[Jim Koepke]

I have spent my life doing hand tool woodworking. What I found was these old 20th century experts had a poor grasp of the trade. That is why I asked for 18th century citations, not the speculations of dilettantes.

Gee Warren, did you expect everyone to hold their breath while waiting for those in the know to step up?

Speculation and dilettantism is something to delight in on a cold snow bound weekend.

jtk

- Interesting 'dilettante' comes from the same root as 'to delight.'

mid 18th century: from Italian, ‘person loving the arts’, from dilettare ‘to delight’, from Latin delectare.