Are carbide turning tools the equivalent of dovetail jigs?

[John Jardin]

I've spent the last 2 years plus building a pair of serpentine dressers and am now into the French Polish finishing.
Of course, we period furniture snobs would never think of joinery other than hand cut dovetails (perish the thought of using a dovetail jig).
Last year, as I approached the realization of completion, I started thinking of what would be my next mountain to climb. Enter Jack Guzman, a Windsor chair maker from Maine, with a post and pics of a Curtis Buchannon rocking Windsor chair and off to the races I went. My library now has a huge collection of Windsor chair books and lots of saved u-tube videos and a bunch of new tools. The "Chairmaker's Notebook" by Peter Gilbert is my guiding light into this new world.
I never thought of including chair building into my journey of woodworking - I considered chairmakers and the craft a cult. Well, welcome cult.
When you decide to build Windsor chairs, you better be pretty good at turning. I'd done some turning in the past needing to turn legs for a Shaker sewing desk but turning was not my thing. Now that has changed. I need to get good at it. So in addition to the Tormek, I just ordered a Rikon 1hp grinder with 2 CBN wheels from Ken.
A friend and novice turner, showed me some of his work only using carbide turning tools. Until 2 weeks ago I had no knowledge of the tools. But the little I've learned about the tools tells me it's like Earth and Mars.
So that's why I pose the question. Oh, by the way, I'm expecting the set of carbide turning tools today!

[Prashun Patel]

If you like turning, traditional tools may offer more versatility. But there is an investment in time. But it also does not take long to become “pretty good”.

Maybe do both.

[John Keeton]

If you intend on doing traditional Windsor style turnings, you will have a very difficult time doing so with carbide tools similar to Easy Wood. Some of the Hunter carbide tools will work for some, but not all of the needed work.

[Richard Coers]

Here was the way it was explained to us by Soren Berger at a club meeting. "Show of hands, how many of you have sharpened a new pencil with a pocket knife?" "How many of you held the knife perpendicular to the pencil and scraped the end to a point?" "How many started at the end of the pencil and tried to take off wood buy starting at the end and moving towards the eraser?" Those 3 questions pretty much fully explain spindle turning. To answer your question, no they aren't like a dovetail fixture, they are like using a scraper instead of a hand plane. More about right tool for the job. Hope you have plenty of sandpaper on hand for removing the roughness or tear out left by those new carbide tools. You will also have to get real creative to not rip up the corners of a square leg transitioning to round. Scrapers and square stock produces an explosion of splinters! Good luck

[David Walser]

John -- I sincerely hope you'll enjoy using your carbide tools. I have a few carbide tools and use them occasionally. I believe even very experienced woodturners can benefit from carbide tools in the right situation.
To answer your question: No, using a carbide tool is not the woodturning equivalent of using a dovetail jig. With a dovetail jig, the end result are dovetails that are too perfect to have been made by hand. The dovetails are perfectly spaced and identical, one to another. There are no spots where the marking knife, chisel, or saw cut just a little too deeply, or angle of the tails vary -- if only very slightly -- from one side or from one to another. That is, a set of drawers or a cabinet case made by hand by a master, even if 'perfectly done', will look handmade. The same drawers or cabinet created with the aid of a dovetail jig will look made by machine.


For a lot of turned items, it would be impossible to tell if the item were turned with or without carbide tools. Once sanded, the evidence of the use of carbide tools is gone. So, instead of your analogy, you might consider the divide between those who shun the use of most, if not all, power tools and those who don't even own a block plane. The power tool users point to being able to make a cabinet much more quickly than someone using only hand tools. They'll also claim that the two cabinet's, properly made, will be identical in appearance. (Let's ignore differences in dovetails or dimensions of milled stock.)
Hand tool users like the reduced noise and dust. They claim a zen-like feeling from use of a good hand plane that cannot be duplicated when using a powered jointer. Hand tool users will also, correctly, claim that some aspects of their craft can be very hard, if not impossible to produce with powered tools. A block plane can produce a shadow line or a chamfered edge that requires no sanding. Such crisp details can be difficult to produce with a power tool. The bearing from a router may leave a very slight indentation that needs to be sanded away -- and sanding risks rounding over the crisp line that's desired.
The same can be said, only with much more validity, with regard to using carbide tools in turning. With the spindles for your chairs, the additional sanding required by the use of carbide tools is apt to obliterate some of the crisp details called for by the design. In furniture turning (and lots of other types of spindle turning), fillets are used to create shadow lines that separate and transition from one turned element to another. Fillets should have sharp corners and edges. To preserve those edges, fillets should be sanded very lightly if at all. A good skew or spindle gouge can create a fillet that needs no sanding. You cannot do that reliably with a carbide tool. The same can be said for many of the other elements of a typical spindle turning.


Traditional tools leave a surface that requires only light sanding. Carbide tools leave a surface that, typically, requires more sanding -- and too much sanding can destroy the very details we're trying to create.
Where does that leave us? If I were a production turner, I might rough-out my spindles using carbide tools and then use traditional tools to lake off the last 1/16" or put in the small details. I most definitely would use carbide tools for resins (which respond well to scraping cuts). I also would use carbide for my deep hollowing. So, as I said, I believe carbide tools have a legitimate place in the arsenal of even very experienced turners.

Carbide tools just don't replace traditional tools. Traditional tools leave behind a better surface, reducing the amount of sanding needed.


HTH

PS: As John Keaton points out, not all carbide tools are scrapers. This is true. Some of the Hunter carbide tools are designed for making bevel supported cuts -- giving the same result as a very sharp skew or spindle gouge. However, in my experience, if you cannot reliably make bevel supported cuts with traditional tools, you're unlikely to be able to make such cuts with Mr. Hunter's tools. If anything, I find it takes better tool edge control to get good results from the Hunter carbide tools than it does with a traditional tool. The bevel and 'flute' on a Hunter carbide tool are a lot smaller than those found on traditional tools. Not only is the bevel harder to 'find', it's easier to take too large a bite -- swamping the small flute's ability to clear the chips. Having said that, you cannot get a better surface finish then that left by a properly used Hunter carbide. That's particularly true on end grain. Wonderful tools, but ones that require finesse to get the desired result. I doubt it would be the first tool I'd give a beginner.

[John Keeton]

A Neander I am not even though I have and use a number of hand tools and enjoy them. I have no hesitancy about using power tools when appropriate, but I want to make sure we are talking apples and apples here. The term "carbide tools" typically is used to refer to the Easy Wood tools and clones, which are, in fact, scrapers as pointed out. However, Hunter carbide tools are not scrapers if properly used, and cut much like a gouge except with a lighter cut. They are excellent tools and will handle some of the applications in doing detailed Windsor turnings. However, they will not handle all the profiling required and in some situations are not the most efficient tool even though they might work. Repetition is important in doing chair turnings, and for that matter, any type of furniture turnings. In constructing a Windsor certain measurements are critical. Even though diameters can vary slightly, placement of score lines that are used in seating pieces into their mortises at the right depth cannot vary. I use a skew for those score lines and I doubt any of the carbide tools will handle that task. I also use the skew for some of the tapers and other applications. A 3/4" continental gouge comes in handy, as do 3/8" and 1/2" spindle gouges. I also use a 1/4" spindle detail gouge for the crisp detailing. The beauty of Windsor style legs and arm supports is in the flowing curves. IMO, the best way to achieve those is with traditional tools.

[Reed Gray]

Well, never heard that comparison before.... I use scrapers a lot. For the spindles you are wanting to turn, you can do a fair amount of the roughing with the carbide scrapers, but the detail work will not go as well. The Hunter tools can work well for long flowing lines, but I don't think they will work for detail work. With first efforts, you may need to resort to the 80 grit gouge, aka abrasives. Plan to turn several 'test' pieces for each different spindle you will be doing. There are some that can do as good of a job on long spindles as a turner can, just using a draw knife. They are few. You will probably find a need for a skew, a spindle roughing gouge either standard of continental type, and one or two detail gouges.

robo hippy

[John K Jordan]

Sir Jardin, If you didn't see it I answered this question with my perspective on the other forum.

JKJ

[Allen Mattsen]

However, Hunter carbide tools are not scrapers if properly used, and cut much like a gouge except with a lighter cut.

John, could you explain why the Hunter tools are better (for lack of a better term)? Is it because they use a negative rake type angle? I'm considering a tool for hollowing small boxes and am still confused by what to get as well as why some are better than others. There are bit type tools that can be resharpened on a grinder (Ellsworth hollowing tool, Jordan tools, etc) and then there are carbide tools that seem to serve a similar purpose that simply use replaceable inserts. What is the deal between these types of tools? I would prefer to use traditional tools (all my early tool purchases are so far) and get the finish of traditional tools on my work, but for hollowing it seems many choose some type of bit tool or carbide tool. Thanks

[David Walser]

Allen — I’m not John, nor do I play him on TV; however, I believe I can answer your question: The carbide Mike Hunter uses in his tools has a different shape than those used by EasyWoodTools (and most others brands). The EWT tools have a ‘flat’ top (even the negative rake versions are basically flat). In contrast, the Hunter carbide’s have a small flute (or concavity) after the edge. This allows the Hunter carbide tools to be used as a ‘bevel rubbing’ cutting tool, just like a spindle gouge or a skew. The tools can also be used in scraping mode. Note: The bevel of a Hunter carbide is very short, when compared with a spindle gouge, for example. This can make it harder for a new turner to find the ‘sweet spot’, where the tool does its bevel riding magic. When used properly, ‘magic’ is the proper term. The surface left by the tool is very good. A skew might do as well, but not better.

My hollowing rig, which was made by a company no longer in business, has cutters made from HSS tool bits and from carbide. The carbide is one of Mike Hunger’s carbides. I use it for light finishing cuts. I use the HSS cutters to remove the bulk of the material. However, most of the hollowing I do is for small boxes and similar, fairly open, forms. For those I use a spindle gouge or bowl gouge to remove most of the material. Then, I generally finish with my skew, used as a negative rake scraper. (If the form has a rounded interior bottom, I use a round nose negative rake scraper.) With a light touch, I get very good results with negative rake scrapers. I might get a better surface with one of my Hunter carbides, but my skews are always close to hand.

[John Keeton]

David has given a good explanation of the Hunter tools. I use them for undercut rims on lidded bowls and for hollowing end grain two piece vase forms, along with various other uses. They are not intended to hog off a lot of material, but as David has indicated, the cut surface is very nice and if used correctly they are less likely to catch. However...if you introduce one like a scraper you will immediately get a dramatic result that will leave a lasting impression!!

I don’t typically turn flat bottom boxes, but I think you would do better using a negative rake scraper to square off the bottom of the cavity. The Hunter #5 Badger would work very well for hollowing an end grain box and the. Use the NRS for getting the flat bottom.

[Mike Hunter]

Hunter Tool does not scrape anything. The geometry of our Hunter carbide tool sets up a strong compression cut which excels at cutting knots, end grain, and side grain. We cut bark inclusions. We like controlled precision cuts. And we like to cut exotic, dense woods. Carbide tools can excel with compression cuts. Carbide tools have limited life with scraper cuts. Mike

[Randy Heinemann]

The only thing I would add is that I started turning between 2 and 3 years ago with the concept that I didn't want to invest a lot of time, effort, and money in perfecting my turning tool sharpening technique, so I bought Easy Wood carbides to start. I actually think they work extremely well for basic bowl turning; especially for hollowing bowls. They can remove a lot of material in a short time, especially for beginners. Best of all for me, at the time, was NO SHARPENING. Over the last couple of years I've acquired steel bowl gouges, scrapers, and hollowing tools. I also found out that the Tormek sharpening system, which have been sitting in a cabinet underneath my bench for about 10 - 15 years, made sharpening gouges and scrapers extremely easy with investment in one more Tormek jig. So, now I use my carbide tools at times when I find I'm having trouble with a particular bowl because carbides like Easy Wood are easy to use catchless. I've also found out that I can get a very smooth surface many times with the carbides if I'm more patient and careful about how I use them. I have also found that the steel gouges and scrapers can yield a much better surface as I develop my technique over time. So, I don't see that using carbides or steel tools is an either or thing. For me, sometimes one type works better and that's what I use. It is true, though, that sometimes you just can't get good results with the Easy Wood tools compared to the high speed steel tools.

[John Keeton]

Just to repeat, as Mike Hunter has said, his tools are not at all the same as the Easy Wood tools. I agree one can hog off a lot of wood with the EW tools, but they are not comparable to the Hunter tools.

[Reed Gray]

I had never heard the term 'compression' cut, until this thread came up, here and over at WC. No clue as to what that means.... Shear or slicing angled cuts, yes.... Anyone explain???

The reason standard scraping carbide tipped tools are popular is because they are an easy to control small scraper. Scrapers can do a lot, if you know how to use them.

robo hippy