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Thread: Buying First Turning Tools (set advice and/or individual)

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melvin Feng View Post
    Hmmmm, I don't think you mean live center - it would rotate with the piece, not allowing you to drill.
    I assumed he meant to say "tailstock" instead of live center.

    I often use Forstner bits in a end mill holder. One of my bit sets has 3/8" shafts so I use this 3/8" end mill holder - the bits fasten with a set screw. The fit in the holder is precise.

    end_mill_holder.jpg

    I do use #2MT collets but in the headstock since they can be pulled tight with a drawbar and to hold wood and not drill bits. (I usually use a collet that grips a 1/2" tenon and other sizes when turning metal rod stock.) They won't work in the tailstock since a drawbar won't work with a tailstock, at least I can't see how it can. The end mill holder grips the bit tightly but it can still slip in the tailstock so I generally grip it with small channel lock pliers or vise grips.

    For twist drills I often use taper shank bits with #2MT or #1MT with an inexpensive adapter. (I've never seen a taper shank forstner bit!)

    taper_1_IMG_20160919_094408.jpg

    Between using the end mill holder and taper shank bits, I rarely put a bit in a Jacobs chuck. Both of these methods greatly reduce the extra length when using the Jacobs chuck. This might be important when drilling the end of a longish piece on a short bed lathe, but more important to me is the extra length can allow vibration and reduce precision. I do use Jacobs chucks a lot but mostly for center drills for starting a hole (and when I need a size I don't have in a taper shank bit!)

    JKJ

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    ...

    I often use Forstner bits in a end mill holder. One of my bit sets has 3/8" shafts so I use this 3/8" end mill holder - the bits fasten with a set screw. The fit in the holder is precise.

    end_mill_holder.jpg

    I do use #2MT collets but in the headstock since they can be pulled tight with a drawbar and to hold wood and not drill bits. (I usually use a collet that grips a 1/2" tenon and other sizes when turning metal rod stock.) They won't work in the tailstock since a drawbar won't work with a tailstock, at least I can't see how it can. The end mill holder grips the bit tightly but it can still slip in the tailstock so I generally grip it with small channel lock pliers or vise grips.

    ...
    [Emphasis added.]

    John -- I've not thought of using an endmill holder. That's an interesting idea. I'll have to mull it over. (This may be a chance to purchase a new tool!)

    Let me respond to the bolded text in the quoted material, above. I often use a 3/8" MT collet to hold Forstner bits in the quill of my tailstock. I've always used a drawbar with them. I wonder if there are different methods of advancing the quill -- some that are compatible with a drawbar and some that are not? Note: I just replaced my Australia-made Woodfast lathe with a Powermatic 3520C. I've not tried to use a MT collet in the tailstock since I switched lathe. That's why I found your comment so interesting (it might affect me).
    David Walser
    Mesa, Arizona

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walser View Post
    I wonder if there are different methods of advancing the quill -- some that are compatible with a drawbar and some that are not?
    The design of the PM tailstock didn't lend itself to using a drawbar. Running the drawbar completely through the tailstock and cranking to advance won't work since the length from the front of the quill to the back of the crank increases. If a drawbar could be devised to tighten internally, just behind the taper in the quill, that might be made to work. However it would limit how far the quill could advance or require a longer quill. Could possibly devise something to push the entire tailstock along the ways but it seems that could compromise the stability that comes with clamping the tailstock tightly. Another problem with the whole drawbar idea is the through-hole on the PM3520b, at least, is not large enough to pass the 3/8" drawbar. I can think of several ways to get around that but the whole thing was getting out of hand!

    Now I'm curious about the design of the Woodfast tailstock that can hold the MT collet tightly. (Without the use of a hammer!)

    At the time I bought that end mill holder it was less than $15. At the moment, most with #2MT seem to be $25+.

    JKJ

  4. #49
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    Video on a Starter Tools Set

    I did a video on this topic you might find helpful.https://youtu.be/EDutGUGDvxY
    God is great and life is good!

  5. #50
    Awesome, thanks. Yes, I will definitely move to Thompson, et al premium tool steel(s) once I get more experience and learn what to focus my attention on tools-wise. A saved step now with long term in mind is exactly what helps.

  6. #51
    What are folks using for setup jigs, blocks, etc? Are there any that are indispensable? The Raptor jigs or Battie angle gauge? I think I'm going Wolverine system and Varigrind 1 as the base system to begin with. Can I use a digital angle gauge to check the angles of the tools or is a manual style protractor something to have?

    Also, what are you folks using for sanding systems?
    notes: I have some mesh style sandpaper (and a drill) but that's about it so far. Are the products from woodturner's wonders good to get for using a drill or other device? If so which ones? Drill alternative for power sanding? I really need help on the sandpaper types that are best - shape and type. I doubt my random orbit sander's supply of hook & loop will get me far or last very long and paper sandpaper disintegrates fast (obviously). I've seen those squares of wet/dry rockler sells but those seem like a one or two project deal or for pen turning (which I don't do).

  7. #52
    I know I want to upgrade two tools already and add some.

    Spindle gouge - some have complained about the thompson grind - why? can I or should I get a fingernail grind style tool?
    Bowl gouge - see above, except I think I want to use a 40/40 or Ellsworth grind for a bowl gouge. Dunno for certain. Reading Ellsworth's book right now
    Hollowing tool(s) - see below
    Negative rake scraper(s) - suggestions needed

    If I buy Thompson tools, and don't yet make my own handles, what size handle - and what handle specifically - should I get? Is there something I can interchange a couple Thompson gouges between the same handle? How does that work?

    Hollowing - I have been looking at Hunter, Jordan, and Easy Wood tools scraper/hollowers. I want to finish the bottom of projects, mostly boxes so far, and have not the tools to do it effectively yet. I'd like to do hollow forms at some point, too, but initially just doing boxes so far. Yes, I can use a Forstner bit and probably will do that too, but want a somewhat beefy bar tool to get to the bottom of things. I've been trying to stay traditional tools only but would consider carbide for this element. The bit style Jordan tools could be resharpened on my grinder / CBN wheel setup, though, which is appealing. https://www.packardwoodworks.com/tools-jord-holl.html
    Last edited by Allen Mattsen; 02-12-2021 at 10:24 PM. Reason: added info

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Mattsen View Post
    ... If I buy Thompson tools, and don't yet make my own handles, what size handle - and what handle specifically - should I get? Is there something I can interchange a couple Thompson gouges between the same handle? How does that work? ....
    I assume you are asking about Thompson handles. Unless he's released an enhancement recently, his handles are limited to a single shaft diameter. E.g. a 3/8" diameter shaft handle will hold any 3/8" diameter tool. The tool is held with two set screws.

    I was surprised, but I like his handles a lot in a heated shop*. I ordered a couple so I could use the tools right away before I made handles and then ordered more instead of making some. Their weight is (was) adjustable with fine shot in the hollow aluminum body. I initially found them heavy, removed the shot, and prefer them that way. As far as length, I prefer a shorter handle for smaller tools, e.g. a 7" handle on a 1/4" detail gouge, and longer handles on larger tools. But you could economize with a medium handle and share it between tools to start.

    (*Lost my heated shop and tools are stored in my unheated garage for now. Someone ask a question and I dug the tools out. Even with our mild CA winters, I'm not using the aluminum handles in an unheated space!)

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Mattsen View Post
    What are folks using for setup jigs, blocks, etc? Are there any that are indispensable? The Raptor jigs or Battie angle gauge? I think I'm going Wolverine system and Varigrind 1 as the base system to begin with. Can I use a digital angle gauge to check the angles of the tools or is a manual style protractor something to have?

    Also, what are you folks using for sanding systems?
    notes: I have some mesh style sandpaper (and a drill) but that's about it so far. Are the products from woodturner's wonders good to get for using a drill or other device? If so which ones? Drill alternative for power sanding? I really need help on the sandpaper types that are best - shape and type. I doubt my random orbit sander's supply of hook & loop will get me far or last very long and paper sandpaper disintegrates fast (obviously). I've seen those squares of wet/dry rockler sells but those seem like a one or two project deal or for pen turning (which I don't do).
    I'll let others chime in on the details of raptor vs batty gauges since I don't use either. The raptor gauges look to be simpler, but you need one for each angle, and as long as those angles are the ones you want to use, you're great. I believe there are three different Batty gauges that have two angles at each corner, so there are a lot of options, but I don't know how easy it is to actually use and setup with the wheel since the contact patch is so small.

    I have a robo rest for my platform sharpening, but unfortunately, he stopped selling them recently. Some of the angles aren't accurate, but they are consistent, which is much more important to me.

    In my d-way orders, they actually add in a small card stock cutout to help set a couple specific angles. You can create your own setup cards pretty easily if you want, I believe John makes his own out of acrylic.

    For sanding, I have the inertia sander from woodturners wonders, it is great for larger spindles and bowls. It doesn't do very well on small parts, even with the 2 inch pad. I have a set of 3 inch and 2 inch pads and a wide selection of their sanding pads - I have the green, purple, and abranet style. I haven't used them enough to really notice any differences or have preferences, they seem to work well enough for me, though I haven't used the abranet style much.

    I still use the strips of sanding paper of a wide variety of grits, I believe from 80-800. I have a mix of brands from the rockler house brand, versions off amazon, woodcraft, and then from platte river for the other coarser and finer grits. I use the paper on smaller turnings, and where I need more dexterity to reach in bowls and spindles where the inertia sander doesn't reach.

    I do have sets of micro mesh, but I don't use them very often, only when I'm working with a CA finish or acrylic, which isn't very often.

    As a side note to setup jigs - I have the Ellsworth grinding jig, which is essentially a fixed vari-grind 1. It is my most used bowl gouge grind, so I like having the one setup for it. I use it with the wolverine Vee arm on the 180 grit CBN wheel. It actually requires a slightly different locating position, so I built setup blocks to make things consistent and easier. I did the necessary measurements, and then cut blocks of wood to set the Vee arm distance, and a riser block in the Vee arm pocket to get the jig up to the correct height. I can post a picture if it is easier to see, just let me know!

    I also have multiple vari-grind 1 jigs because I want them to be more consistent when I use them, so i want to set it, and then only use it for a particular grind. I probably need to get one more at this point too.

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Mattsen View Post
    I know I want to upgrade two tools already and add some.

    Spindle gouge - some have complained about the thompson grind - why? can I or should I get a fingernail grind style tool?
    Bowl gouge - see above, except I think I want to use a 40/40 or Ellsworth grind for a bowl gouge. Dunno for certain. Reading Ellsworth's book right now
    Hollowing tool(s) - see below
    Negative rake scraper(s) - suggestions needed

    If I buy Thompson tools, and don't yet make my own handles, what size handle - and what handle specifically - should I get? Is there something I can interchange a couple Thompson gouges between the same handle? How does that work?

    Hollowing - I have been looking at Hunter, Jordan, and Easy Wood tools scraper/hollowers. I want to finish the bottom of projects, mostly boxes so far, and have not the tools to do it effectively yet. I'd like to do hollow forms at some point, too, but initially just doing boxes so far. Yes, I can use a Forstner bit and probably will do that too, but want a somewhat beefy bar tool to get to the bottom of things. I've been trying to stay traditional tools only but would consider carbide for this element. The bit style Jordan tools could be resharpened on my grinder / CBN wheel setup, though, which is appealing. https://www.packardwoodworks.com/tools-jord-holl.html
    For spindle gouges, I have the two that D-Way offer, but I honestly haven't used them much. All that to say, you'll discover a grind that you prefer for the way in which you turn. Once you get your sharpening setup, you can use the vari-grind 1 jig to try out numerous profiles. You can also try relieving the heel if you have clearance issues. I think this is where a lesson or two from an experienced turner can help a lot (Post covid, of course!). I've watched videos, and they only help so much, the rest right now for me is to just practice and make mistakes to figure things out on my own.

    For the bowl gouge, I have practiced the most with the Ellsworth grind and use his jig for my sharpening. It is my go-to grind on my bowl gouges. I do have a smaller 3/8 bowl gouge that I tried the 40/40 with, but because it was so much smaller than the 5/8" bowl gouges that I primarily use, I haven't really been able to give it a good trial. I hope to get a couple more 5/8" bowl gouges so that I can experiment with different grinds in the future, and give them a fair shake.

    For handles, you can look at D-way. He sells bushings, so for the handles with larger receivers, you can go one size down, if that makes sense. He also sells quick change knobs that are knurled that makes changing out tools very easy and quick. I have a set of 6 of their handles ranging from the 8 inch to the 16 inch, and a few sets of bushings, and each has the quick change knob. I think it is a very versatile setup.

    For hollowing, I would honestly wait for now. Practice and become proficient with the basics and try multiple types of turnings. I personally have the Hunter Carbide Badger set of 2 tools, one is a tapered shaft, and the other is a slight swan neck. I also have the Easy Wood Tools pro #3 hollower that has a more severe swan neck, and that is about as much as I need. I don't do that many hollow forms at this point, but I when I do, I do as much as I can with the Hunter Carbide tools, and then if needed go to the #3 EWT pro hollower. My setup is only for relatively small hollowing. If you want to be able to do deeper vessels, you'll want to look more at the captive systems with lasers and the like.

    I don't know if it has been mentioned, but you'll also want to get a bowl caliper set, probably the larger version. This will especially be important when doing hollow forms where you can't reach and feel the wall thickness very easily. The calipers will very easily and quickly show you the wall thickness.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Mattsen View Post
    Also, what are you folks using for sanding systems?
    notes: I have some mesh style sandpaper (and a drill) but that's about it so far. Are the products from woodturner's wonders good to get for using a drill or other device? If so which ones? Drill alternative for power sanding? I really need help on the sandpaper types that are best - shape and type. I doubt my random orbit sander's supply of hook & loop will get me far or last very long and paper sandpaper disintegrates fast (obviously). I've seen those squares of wet/dry rockler sells but those seem like a one or two project deal or for pen turning (which I don't do).
    I have the pneumatic 3" ROS from WTW and it's nice for finish sanding on platters. Needs a reasonable air compressor to operate, although we generally use it with that air turned way down for gentle use with fine sandpaper. It has a built in valve to limit the speed. (I NEVER use the ROS at high speed and the sandpaper lasts just about forever.)

    But my favorite is a pneumatic 2" ROS from Grex. I keep two, one with 2" disk and one with a 1" disk to get deep into the bottom of a box or vessel. Again, only use it at slow speeds with fine sandpaper. (I haven't used rotating sanding disks on a drill for many years, simply not needed if the piece is properly smoothed first with hand scrapers.) The Grex:

    grex_ROS.jpg

    The 3" WTW ROS in action:

    sanding_IMG_20171212_094330_319.jpg

    Besides that, much of my sanding is with my unpatented Soft Sanding Block, a piece of sandpaper wrapped around a soft eraser. Easily conforms to surfaces with compound curves.

    sanding_soft_block.jpg

    JKJ

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Mattsen View Post
    ...
    If I buy Thompson tools, and don't yet make my own handles, what size handle - and what handle specifically - should I get? Is there something I can interchange a couple Thompson gouges between the same handle? How does that work?

    Hollowing - I have been looking at Hunter, Jordan, and Easy Wood tools scraper/hollowers. I want to finish the bottom of projects, mostly boxes so far, and have not the tools to do it effectively yet. I'd like to do hollow forms at some point, too, but initially just doing boxes so far. Yes, I can use a Forstner bit and probably will do that too, but want a somewhat beefy bar tool to get to the bottom of things. I've been trying to stay traditional tools only but would consider carbide for this element. The bit style Jordan tools could be resharpened on my grinder / CBN wheel setup, though, which is appealing. https://www.packardwoodworks.com/tools-jord-holl.html
    The length of the handle depends on the kinds of things you turn, your skill level, and how aggressively you work. I just measured: most of my handles for smaller turnings are 6 to 10" long. Some tools I use without putting them in a handle. I have handles 13" to 22" for larger bowls and hollowing things.

    I almost never make handles and permanently mount a tool I like to make inserts to fit into the handles so I can quickly swap out tools. For example, I keep multiple 3/8" spindle gouges all sharpened the same. When one gets dull I put in a new one and don't stop to sharpen until they are all dull. I drill a deep hole in the handle to accommodate the shaft of the tool so I can leave the same length of tool extended regardless of low long it is. Here are some of my handles. I sometimes make inserts for these from aluminum by turning them on the wood lathe, some I make on my metal-turning lathe. I make inserts to hold tools from 1/4" diameter up to 5/8". You can buy handles somewhat like this but they are expensive. Also, I couldn't find any that fit my needs so I started making my own.

    handle_adapters.jpg handle_adapter_extension.jpg inserts_IMG_7933.jpg

    The top three are the small Hunter 3-piece hollowing set.
    finished_IMG_20150420_15371.jpg

    The inserts are epoxied into the handle. Someone once worried this wouldn't be strong enough. They are plenty strong and none has ever loosened or broke.
    ebony_quarter_inch_IMG_7950.jpg

    A box scraper is perfect for the straight insides of a box and for cleaning up the flat bottom of almost anything too tight to get your hand into the bottom. A good box rest (Robust or Best Wood Tools) helps a lot with this. Another tool to buy...

    This little Sorby teardrop scraper will nicely clean up the bottom and the curved insides of a variety of vase-like forms. The scraper can be rotated on the handle to fit the curve. I use both straight and gooseneck handles as needed. More tools to buy...
    Sorby_teardrop.jpg

    I use that and other curved scrapers, some handheld, to clean up the inside of things like these. I want the inside as perfect as the outside.

    Blackwood_Box_IMG_8157.jpg cedar_vessel.jpg

    The Jordan bits can easily be sharpened on a AlOx or CBN wheel. They are easier to sharpen if you get the little jig he sells.

    But I'll repeat - it would crazy to go out and buy every tool you might use someday. Start slowly and add tools as you progress.

    JKJ

  13. #58
    Lots of good info here. I did begin making a handle yesterday and really like the idea of being able to change tools. This first one will likely buy a brass ferrule and epoxy in the tool. It's good practice and already I'm waiting for the snow to clear enough to go buy the bed extension/outboard turning setup for my Laguna 1216 lathe. My handle length limit is about 14" without it and taking off the tool rest often is a pain so that's next.

    Set screws vs knurled quick-change connectors is interesting to consider. While I don't have a lot of tools now (8), I do like the idea of the knurled handle adapters for easy tool changes. Really cool you make your own set screw setups!

    Certainly, the bowl gouge I have is trash as it, at least, with the stock grind and short handle. I'm unhappy with the grind on my spindle gouge, as well, but that may also be inexperience. I'll toy with grinding things once the setup gets here (mid-Feb, they said).

    What is your opinion of straight style bits (Jordan, Ellsworth hollowing bit too, etc) vs carbide bits (Hunter, Easy wood tools, etc)? Also, if you get a carbide hollowing tool do they come with negative rake inserts and how important is that?

    I plan to connect with the local AAW chapter in my area and hopefully at some point get some hand-on work with some others. They are still holding meetings on zoom. I think that will be a good way to get some learning going outside of videos and reading.

  14. #59
    I forgot to ask: the 8" tool rest that came stock with my lathe seems like something I'll want to upgrade. Any suggestions It's a 1" (24.5mm) post. I wonder if you just buy another tool rest that's larger or are there systems? Better makers than others for reasons I'm not aware of?

  15. #60
    Would this be a decent starting point for a chuck to use in tailstock for forstner and other bit drilling procedures? Is there anything about buying a chuck that I should lookout for other than quality/longevity vs price (these are inexpensive options)?

    PSI Woodworking Products TM32KL 1/2-Inch Keyless Drill Chuck with #2 Morse Taper Arbor (1/2" 2MT Keyless) ($40)

    Rockler sells a keyed chuck and taper which ends up being ($60)

    Woodcraft sells WoodRiver - 1/2" Capacity x #2 MT Lathe Keyless Drill Chuck ($64.99


    )
    If you had to buy two Forstner bits for drilling boxes what sizes are ideal?

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