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Thread: Buying First Turning Tools (set advice and/or individual)

  1. #76
    The standard burnishers for the card scrapers don't work as well on the M2, and are poor for the M42 and V10 metals. The idea is that the burnishing rod has to be harder or at a minimum, as hard as the metal you are trying to burnish a burr on. I could get a decent burr on M2 with the triangle burnishing rod, but had trouble doing it with the round rod. I use a 3/16 carbide rod for burnishing burrs on my tools now, most of which are M42 and V10, and it also works on the tantung on the Big Ugly tool.

    robo hippy

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reed Gray View Post
    The standard burnishers for the card scrapers don't work as well on the M2, and are poor for the M42 and V10 metals. The idea is that the burnishing rod has to be harder or at a minimum, as hard as the metal you are trying to burnish a burr on. I could get a decent burr on M2 with the triangle burnishing rod, but had trouble doing it with the round rod. I use a 3/16 carbide rod for burnishing burrs on my tools now, most of which are M42 and V10, and it also works on the tantung on the Big Ugly tool.

    robo hippy
    Hey Reed, have you tried a triangle carbide burnisher? The Arno I got uses a carbide triangle on one side with a 1/64" radius and an almost 3/16 carbide round rod on the other side AND a great handle! I find my self reaching for it over the other burnishers I keep. Not cheap though.

    Hey, I still have a few of the 3/16" rods I'm selfishly holding on to after giving a bunch away. I made up some burnishers and donated them to benefit auctions.

    In a pinch the hardened shaft of a turning tool can be used as a burnisher but the diameter is way bigger than I like. The larger the diameter, the more physical pressure it takes to turn the same burr. The tiny radius of the carbide triangle burnisher takes much less force but the burr may not be as uniform. Might not make much difference on a turning tool.

    JKJ

  3. #78
    I haven't seen a triangle burnishing rod. Mine are 3/16. I chatted with Eric Loffstrom at the last Oregon Woodturning Symposium, and he was using a 1/8 inch rod. Triangle would work. I have no problem getting a very sharp burr with the 3/16 rod. It only became a problem raising a burr on my copy of the Sorby 'Hardwood bowl NRS' which had about an 80 degree on the bottom and about a 10 on the top. That one didn't take much of a burr. I prefer 60/25 for my NRSs.

    robo hippy

  4. #79
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    For those playing along at home, I believe the Arno burnisher John is referring to is this one:
    burnisher2__29538_695x522.jpg


































    Here's a close-up of the head of the burnisher. You'll see a triangle shaped carbide rod is on one side and a round rod is on the other:

    burnisher5__06792_695x507.jpg

































    It's available for purchase in several places. Prices vary widely. I've not used this type of burnisher. But, on John's recommendation, it looks like it would be worth trying.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    David Walser
    Mesa, Arizona

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walser View Post
    For those playing along at home, I believe the Arno burnisher John is referring to is this one:
    ...
    That's exactly the burnisher! Comes with a nice leather case too. I had read about it in some article and decided to get one to try.

    This is the one I got ($40) but Amazon says it's unavailable now.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B076GW8N5K

    But be careful - I see Amazon now sell another similar one that LOOKS similar but it's not the same, it's called the Carbcut Sharpener instead of Carbur Burnisher - the round rod on this one has a helical pattern.
    https://www.amazon.com/Arno-Carbcut-.../dp/B07J17DMKS
    The text indicates this one is for sharpening things like knives, scissors, axes, and hoes. Says the v-shaped carbide insert is made for removing metal, not turning a burr.

    Rats, I guess I need to get one to evaluate. Might be good around the farm to touch up tools.

    JKJ

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    ...
    But be careful - I see Amazon now sell another similar one that LOOKS similar but it's not the same, it's called the Carbcut Sharpener instead of Carbur Burnisher - the round rod on this one has a helical pattern.
    https://www.amazon.com/Arno-Carbcut-.../dp/B07J17DMKS
    The text indicates this one is for sharpening things like knives, scissors, axes, and hoes. Says the v-shaped carbide insert is made for removing metal, not turning a burr.

    Rats, I guess I need to get one to evaluate. Might be good around the farm to touch up tools.
    I got the Arno sharpener today. What they call the v-shaped carbide insert is quite sharp. I tried it out on pocket knife extremely dulled with farm use. It put a surprisingly good edge on the knife and quickly.

    As for the Arno burnisher, Sir Google suggests several suppliers, however some of them must think the thing is gold plated...

    JKJ

  7. #82
    Screenshot_20210302-231432.jpgScreenshot_20210302-231255.jpg
    Screenshot_20210302-231049.jpg

    These are the only 3 Carbide Burnishers I've been able to find. The Arno one apparently no longer comes with a leather case (at least the one source I've found it in stock). The distinction is 'sharpener' vs 'burnisher' when looking at the Arno tools. Best I've found is around $54. Probably a worthy investment base on what you guys are saying. I'd like to learn more about the one Reed was talking about.

    I've seen where people are mounting solid carbide router bits in handles, too, for a similar task. Might also be worth a try as a secondary option.

    1-5/16 or 1" NRS scraper, or grind my own from Thompson stock. Still can't decide. That Thompson flat stock is $$$! At least I finally have tracking info for my grinder and 180 wheel. The 600 is a couple weeks away still. Progress...

    I should clarify: what I'm looking for is a good sized NRS for cleaning up bowls - for when I get some minor tearout or simply have a tough time making a clean pass with a bowl gouge in the harder to reach areas. Probably for outside of bowls as well, but mainly transition areas inside. D-Way makes a large and medium tool for this that interests me. Details: Curved Neg Rake Scraper - LRG - 1 5/16" x 3/8"- 5/8" Tang. They have 1" and 3/4" versions of this tool also. Any other recommendations? Does the 1-5/16 do the trick or at what point does its size become a drawback?
    Last edited by Allen Mattsen; 03-03-2021 at 8:55 PM. Reason: added NRS details / question

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Mattsen View Post
    ... The Arno one apparently no longer comes with a leather case (at least the one source I've found it in stock). ... Best I've found is around $54. ...
    Lost Art Press has it on their website, under the Crucible Tool tab, listed with the leather sheath for $40.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by David Bassett View Post
    Lost Art Press has it on their website, under the Crucible Tool tab, listed with the leather sheath for $40.
    Thanks! Got one ordered. Cross carbide burnisher off the list.

  10. #85
    Lacer teardrop diamond hone?

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Mattsen View Post
    Lacer teardrop diamond hone?
    There are a number of useful hones. I have a teardrop and flat hones but for the inside of flutes of various sizes I prefer this tapered one which provides a variety of diameters.

    conical-diamond-hone-DMT.jpg

    JKJ

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by John K Jordan View Post
    There are a number of useful hones. I have a teardrop and flat hones but for the inside of flutes of various sizes I prefer this tapered one which provides a variety of diameters.

    conical-diamond-hone-DMT.jpg

    JKJ
    That's what I'm looking for - I figure w/ the Arno Burnisher I can raise/remove burrs from flat tools but want something useful for the inside flutes of gouges. Could you give me more info on that tool and where to get it? I think, ultimately, coming off the 600 grit wheel and honing the inside flutes of my gouges that'll do quite nicely. Learning the nuances of how to get turning tools sharp is fun and interesting to me. I sharpened fine cutlery as a chef for many years so perhaps I'm going too crazy about this but there's is a goal here. ��

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Mattsen View Post
    That's what I'm looking for - I figure w/ the Arno Burnisher I can raise/remove burrs from flat tools but want something useful for the inside flutes of gouges. Could you give me more info on that tool and where to get it? I think, ultimately, coming off the 600 grit wheel and honing the inside flutes of my gouges that'll do quite nicely. Learning the nuances of how to get turning tools sharp is fun and interesting to me. I sharpened fine cutlery as a chef for many years so perhaps I'm going too crazy about this but there's is a goal here. ��
    The diamond compound on it is very fine. I have others that are a bit coarser.
    https://www.amazon.com/DMT-DCSFH-Dia.../dp/B00004WFT1
    Here are other types:
    https://www.amazon.com/Retractable-D.../dp/B01N9HN567
    https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Machi.../dp/B00004WFTZ
    I also use a ceramic slip stone on occasion, like this but a little wider:
    https://www.amazon.com/Spyderco-Cera.../dp/B000KTXLAC

    These are good for removing grinder burrs inside the flute or touching up the edge inside the flute.

    The carbide burnishers like the Arno are for adding a burnished burr to cabinet and hand scrapers, not for removing burrs. I remove burrs from scrapers of all types with the Extra Fine Eze-Lap paddle hone, the blue one here. I use them often for removing burrs and honing skews and such and sharpening special tools. They aren't real cheap if you buy them individually from Woodcraft so I contacted the company and bought a lifetime supply for much less than the retail price.

    hones.gif

    But for removing burrs on tools right off the grinder, nothing beats the straight leather wheel and the leather profile wheels on the slow speed Tormek. While I usually sharpen just my spindle gouges with the Tormek, I use the honing wheels on almost every tool. The profiled leather wheels are great for stropping/honing inside flutes and the outside of gouges. I use the larger straight leather wheel for skews and often other tools. These leather wheels have a stropping/honing paste with very fine abrasive applied to the leather.

    The newest version of theTormek stropping/honing wheels look like this. (no use without a Tormek or rigging one to a very slowly rotating motor.)

    Tormek-honing-wheels.jpg

    The straight leather wheel is on the left, the profiled on the right. These are new; after being doped with a bit of oil and the polishing paste, with use they become smooth and black from the steel removed. Since I use the Tormek a a lot for this I have it on a foot switch for a quick stropping after grinding.

    You can make your own stropping/honing straight and profiled wheels. I know a guy who turned some profiled wheels from MDF and mounts them on his lathe. Flat disks of MDF were common years ago to do the same thing as the Tormek leather wheel.

    I've developed something even better than that for touching up skews when they start to get dull with use. I draw them across a piece of MDF with polishing compound from a stick rubbed on the surface. The give the MDF some "bite" to hold the compound I first resaw it with the bandsaw and use the rougher surface. Hold the skew with the bevel flat against the MDF, raise the handle a fraction of a degree, press hard and pull back. A single stroke or two is sufficient for each side to restore the "shaving sharp" edge. You can see that it's working by the black steel marks on the MDF.

    stropping-board.jpg

    One more thing on burnishers. For those using large conventional scrapers for hollowing and such, the Veritas scraper burnisher permits a lot of force which is helpful for large scrapers. I don't use mine any more since I rarely use that type of scraper now, but when I did I used it often. You basically use the front pin to apply leverage against one of the tapered carbide pins. It's screwed down to the workbench or a board.
    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop...er-for-turners

    veritas-scraper-burnisher.jpg

    JKJ

  14. #89
    Wow, great info, JKJ!

    I use a leather stop & compound for my chisels and plane blades - perhaps that could be an interim solution while I sort something else out or use MDF.

    Alternatively, why not remove the Burr using one of my 3 diamond plates (or the Lacer teardrop stone if I get one)? I suppose there are a lot of ways to do this and it does get a little cloudy with all the methods and steps but I'm just a sponge over here 😁

    It would seem the slower speeds of my drill press might work if I made a wheel setup for it using leather and/or MDF?

    Is there a specific type of compound that works better with V10, M42, other HSS steels vs that used for typical hand tool steel?

    Order of operations, in general (maybe not grind every time):

    Grinding > Burr removal > honing (gouges)
    Grinding > Burr removal > honing > stropping (scrapers, skews, etc)

    I don't see an easy reason to strop gouges unless you can somehow strop inside the flute to match both edges, but polishing even just the outside/bevel(s) by stropping would seem to lead to a better surface or cleaner cut. Perhaps I'm conflating stopping for Burr removal and stropping to polish as the final step in a sharpening process?

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Mattsen View Post
    New, quality tools so far:

    D- Way 1/2 bowl gouge (& 12" handle)
    Attachment 453229
    2 other Doug Thompson 3/8 gouges (Spindle and Bowl, bought locally though my club since they had on hand)
    Attachment 453230

    I think next must be a good NRS (or grind one from stock) and a box scraper. Hard to decide on the sizes of scrapers
    Some say big, heft ones and others use 3/4 or 1".
    Nice choices! It looks like you've already put them to some good use, I'm sure you will enjoy using them for quite some time - these newer steels stay sharper longer, so the tools will actually last you much longer than other HSS tools.

    As for Negative Rake Scrapers, I had the same conundrum, and bought both the medium and large d-way sizes. I haven't personally found any particular preference for one size over the other, though they do have different tip shapes as well, so I use them for different tasks. I will say that I never think "I wish I had a smaller scraper" or "I wish I had a bigger scraper", I just use the tool as best I can for the work I do, and I am satisfied with all of them. I tend to think that you will feel comfortable with whatever size you get.

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