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Thread: Dovetail progress, and a lesson

  1. #1
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    Dovetail progress, and a lesson

    I have a five-tail joint underway and it's going pretty well, partly. So far all the tails are square to the face of the tail board –– thanks to using a sawing guide, I confess!

    The pin board is a little different. I cut them freehand. Of the ten cuts, six ended up square to the end, but four are noticeably not square. I haven't cleared the waste yet, but I suspect I'll be paring the sides of some pins if I stay with this set of cuts.

    pin board 1:23:21.jpg

    Writing this up has helped me think it through. Of note is that the four skewed cuts are all going left to right across the end, and I'm right-handed. So I'll try to pick up on that next time. The fact is I just haven't cut enough L-to-R pins yet! All five of the R-to-L cuts are nice and square, so I should call that a victory and take it from there.

    This is just for a single joint to make David Barron's alignment jig, so part length doesn't matter. I might crosscut off the pins and start over –– after cutting 40 or 50 L-to-R pin sides first! This is the only QSWO I have, so the practice will have to be in poplar or mahogany or birch. The oak is demanding to get through.

  2. #2
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    One of my personal rules when cutting dovetails, tails first, is once the tails are all square to the face of the board and all is pared, no more changes to the tails.

    If a pin becomes to small, a shim can be glued to the pin to 'fatten' it up a bit. Of course it has taken me more than 20 years of 'practice' to get to this point.

    My current project is a box of ash to hold coffee filters. My biggest challenge these days is preventing gaps at the baseline.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #3
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    Bob, practice aside, look at your stance, relax, at what height does your body hold the saw edge, make sure your work matches this. Stand back from the work not hunched over it. This improves your view of the vertical. Cut with the far end of the saw to help with this vertical view. Use a relaxed cut, stop and check the angle as you go, especially at the start. Keep the saw level.
    Stop before you cut the blue tape!
    ​You can do a lot with very little! You can do a little more with a lot!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post

    My current project is a box of ash to hold coffee filters. My biggest challenge these days is preventing gaps at the baseline.

    jtk
    Jim, are you fret-sawing below the baseline?

    Nice reminder about the fix-it shim. Thanks.

  5. #5
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    One thing has helped me with saw cuts is watching the reflection in the saw. For vertical cuts the reflection should be on the same plane as the piece being cut.

    If the reflection is moving all over the place, so is the saw.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #6
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    Jim, are you fret-sawing below the baseline?
    Not as often as in the past. Cutting the 'V' groove like Derek shows has helped to avoid this. My chisel work could still use some improvement.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  7. #7
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    Hi Bob - about 6 months ago I put away the Katz-Moses guide I had been using and started cutting free hand dovetails. Lots of practice cuts. In those moments when I am pondering a design decision - I seldom have anything more than a rough idea - or when I'm trying to figure out to make an inappropriate cut a "design feature" or if I'm just bored, I'll cut some dovetails just for the zen of it. Trying to stay in the right place on the top of the cut and getting a plumb cut are actions that offer instant feedback in terms of training muscle memory. By paying attention to what I'm doing with the saw and my stance and arm I've gotten pretty good at those 2. But over cutting the layout - blue tape - on the back side offers no such instant feedback, and I'm guilty of it more often than not. So I came up with this:

    20210114_150245.jpg 20210114_150229.jpg

    It may seem silly, but it has really helped with "learning" when the saw is level and committing it to muscle memory. Sometimes, if it's been a while, I'll cut all the L to R on all the boards then clamp up a scrap and cut some R to L practice cuts just to get in the groove.

    I gotta say your fret sawing is MUCH better than mine. I stay way clear of the line cuz I wander all over the place. I have to work on that.
    Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    Bob, practice aside, look at your stance, relax, at what height does your body hold the saw edge, make sure your work matches this. Stand back from the work not hunched over it. This improves your view of the vertical. Cut with the far end of the saw to help with this vertical view. Use a relaxed cut, stop and check the angle as you go, especially at the start. Keep the saw level.
    Stop before you cut the blue tape!
    William, so true. I think did everything you advised — and the opposite of each thing you advised — during the cuts. In short, I was all over the map, with intermittent flashes of a successful stroke now and then.

    One thing this joint has convinced me is that cutting dovetails is a practice, not just a series of actions that require practice. I’ve spent the last year-plus reading, acquiring tools, and learning about it, and now I’ve begun working at it.

    I just threw my mortarboard in the air and now it’s time to launch my career.

    I can already see that square cuts come from long, careful experience.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    One thing has helped me with saw cuts is watching the reflection in the saw. For vertical cuts the reflection should be on the same plane as the piece being cut.

    If the reflection is moving all over the place, so is the saw.

    jtk
    I denied myself the “straight in the saw mirror” guidance by going Full Guide with the tail cuts. And now that you mention it, I was oblivious to the the “same plane” concept when cutting the pins, so again, thanks for the counsel.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Carey View Post
    Hi Bob - about 6 months ago I put away the Katz-Moses guide I had been using and started cutting free hand dovetails. Lots of practice cuts. In those moments when I am pondering a design decision - I seldom have anything more than a rough idea - or when I'm trying to figure out to make an inappropriate cut a "design feature" or if I'm just bored, I'll cut some dovetails just for the zen of it. Trying to stay in the right place on the top of the cut and getting a plumb cut are actions that offer instant feedback in terms of training muscle memory. By paying attention to what I'm doing with the saw and my stance and arm I've gotten pretty good at those 2. But over cutting the layout - blue tape - on the back side offers no such instant feedback, and I'm guilty of it more often than not. So I came up with this:

    20210114_150245.jpg 20210114_150229.jpg

    It may seem silly, but it has really helped with "learning" when the saw is level and committing it to muscle memory. Sometimes, if it's been a while, I'll cut all the L to R on all the boards then clamp up a scrap and cut some R to L practice cuts just to get in the groove.

    I gotta say your fret sawing is MUCH better than mine. I stay way clear of the line cuz I wander all over the place. I have to work on that.
    Bill, you have captured the essence with this post. I had the word “zen” in mind, so thank you for bringing it into the conversation. Instant feedback, muscle memory, paying attention, stance, practice before the crucial cut: pure gold. Thank you.

    Now that mirror: also a gem. You can bet I’ll have one of those soon. I’d forgotten that David Charlesworth sticks a little mirror onto putty to keep it in place.

  11. #11
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    I just read a line from Krenov’s dovetail discussion: “What did the doing take, and what did it give?”

  12. #12
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    Let me start with (and hopefully not take us off track) "what is that wood?"

    Did you drift to the right? Yep? Is it you or the saw? If it is a new decent saw, probably you.

    Take a scrap board and cut a bunch of straight down lines maybe 1/4 apart or less. I would run the lines on the top and the side facing you.

    Next, run a series of test cuts. Perhaps start by splitting the line, then just to the right, then just to the left. Use a level to make sure that the board is straight up and down (yeah, it really matters). Get that muscle memory going.

    Make a cut or two and then start paying attention to the little things mentioned here about stance and how you move your arm.

    I think that someone said (brain fart, cannot remember who) that when they teach a class, you spend a large amount of time with these practice cuts before you cut your first dovetail.

    Also, if you have not seen Derek's tutorial with the tape (I have a really strong reason to believe that you have; since you have tape on your board) that it really helps to cut where you should.

    Although you might be horrified with your results so far, that is only because you have not seen my first dovetail; or my second, or 20th (you get the picture). I struggle with this type of coordination, so you will likely surpass my dovetails if you keep at it, and I consider mine passable. I have seen lots of really nice dovetails here, and it is difficult to measure up to many of them, and you can know that they spent a lot of time getting that good.

    Looking forward to seeing how they look when you put them together.

  13. #13
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    Andrew, thanks for the helpful advice: all useful, and all pointing to deepening my experience.

    The board is a medium-dark piece of quarter-sawn white oak. Therein lies part of my problem. I’m not ready was yet to work with “exactness and refinement,” as Krenov calls it, with this wood.

    I’m committed to finishing this joint even if I have to cut off the pins and start over. But after more practice cuts I’ll make my next alignment board with mahogany, which is supposed to be more forgiving, or even poplar, which I know is. With the oak, I was “a trifle unrealistic in my exuberance.”

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Carey View Post

    I gotta say your fret sawing is MUCH better than mine. I stay way clear of the line cuz I wander all over the place. I have to work on that.
    Bill, I credit my fancy new Knew Concepts fret saw for that result. The rest of the cuts were nearly as close to the baseline as the one in the photo. Probably beginner’s luck, but using that saw is like night and day compared to my coping saw.

    I’m also glad now that I got the 5” saw instead of 3”. It makes more of a visual line so it’s easier to aim in the desired sawing direction.

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