Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Restored Winchester W4 Plane tote repair & dates for W-series planes?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Lombard, IL
    Posts
    15

    Restored Winchester W4 Plane tote repair & dates for W-series planes?

    I recently restored a Winchester W4 plane which was in rusty/crusty condition and the tote was cracked in two.
    It cleaned-up nicely and I'm happy with the restoration - just wanted to show it off.
    Attachment 449659
    The tote was broken in two pieces about 3/4 inch from the bottom. To repair it, I used J-B WoodWeld epoxy to glue the two pieces back together, but was still a bit nervous about structural strength of the bond, so I took the extra step of reinforcing it by drilling a hold up from the bottom of the tote (drilled parallel to and behind the existing bolt hole), and using a tap, carefully threaded the hole for an 8-32 machine screw. (I had to open up the cavity at the bottom of the tote a bit to allow the tap to be screwed in far enough to bite into the upper piece of the glued tote). I then put a little glue into the hole and screwed in the 8-32 stainless steel screw. After waiting for the glue to dry, I trimmed-off the protruding end of the screw with my dremel and plugged up the extra space at the bottom with some quick-wood epoxy filler. The glued seam between the two pieces was reamed-out with a tiny dremel burr to remove excess epoxy and was then filled with a paste of glue and rosewood sanding dust followed by a final sanding. The repair is now nearly invisible.
    Attachment 449664
    I post this because I haven't seen it done before and I'm rather expecting to be accused of over-kill. I just was concerned that the existing break was a major stress point and wasn't sure if the epoxy alone was enough. Thoughts?

    Also, does anyone know the dates when Winchester actually marketed these W-series planes (supplied by Stanley using the bedrock design)?
    I've read everything I can find on the web including on SMC (link) and I understand that Winchester sold planes made by both Sargent (4-digit model numbers) and Stanley (W-series), and Winchester marketed their tool line from about 1919 to 1931 as described here. But were they actually selling both the Sargent and Stanley versions at the same time?
    I did find a "Winchester Pocket Catalog of Tools" from 1923 on the web here, and on page 13 ("Iron Bench Planes") it lists plane type and length, but no model numbers, so no real clue if these were Sargent or Stanley-made. (Although it does say "Handle and knob varnished" - would that indicate Sargent, or was "varnished" a generic term that would include a shellac finish found on the Stanley-version?). I also read in one of the above links that in 1922 Winchester merged with Simmons Hardware, which sold the KeenKutter planes - also Stanley-Bedrock based. So perhaps sometime after that merger, Winchester approached Stanley to start the "W" line of planes, taking advantage of the existing subcontracting agreement that Simmons already had to create the KeenKutter "K" series of planes?
    Does anyone have access to a Winchester-Simmons Catalog from later in the 1920's that might shed more light on this?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Lombard, IL
    Posts
    15
    My second try to insert pictures:
    W4_1a.jpg
    WinchesterToteRepair.jpg

  3. #3
    I've repaired a number of broken totes and never had one fail again. I suppose the rod that goes through the tote helps to hold it together.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    22,957
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    I've repaired a number of broken totes and never had one fail again. I suppose the rod that goes through the tote helps to hold it together.

    Mike
    Ditto, there are likely more planes with repaired totes in my shop than with complete original totes.

    As long as the two surfaces have been degreased with some denatured alcohol or lacquer thinner before gluing it should be good to go. My favorite is to use epoxy because it doesn't need clamping like some other glues and clear epoxy can be colored with some wood dust to blend in.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Houston TX
    Posts
    532
    Very nice repair, James. Bomb-proof! What finish did you?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Lombard, IL
    Posts
    15
    My favorite finish for knob/tote is tung oil. Lately I've been using the Minwax variety which I know is not pure tung oil.
    It's easy to wipe on, let it sit for 12-24 hours, buff with a 0000 steel wool if needed, and add another coat.
    Repeat until you get the coverage and luster that you want.
    It this case the final coat was too glossy for my liking, so I did a final buff with steel wool and then a rub down with a microfiber cloth for a more satin finish.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
    Posts
    9,491
    Right after WW1 ended...and the demand for thousands of firearms dropped...out. Winchester was searching for ways to keep all of it's workers....working...so Winchcester started to produce and sell a line of hand tools....which was enough to "tide them over"......until WW2 started things up.....and they no longer needed to make planes, squares, drills, and even saws.....
    Winchester Square, over all look.JPG
    Winchester Square, screws.JPG
    Winchester Square, logo.JPG

    It says...WINCHESTER TRADE MARK.....MADE IN U.S.A. 9706

    Screws (4 of them) that attach the brass strip to the Walnut handle, sit in counter-sunk holes, with the steel having been blued.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indy
    Posts
    975
    First, let me compliment your work on that restoration. Very nice. I was interested in your information about the manufacturing sourcing used by Winchester. Your plane's lateral adjuster is the Sargent type; with the simple 90 degree twist to form the lever. Stanley's were made with a separate finger tab on the adjuster. I'm not sure, but I seem to recall that there can be clues to manufacturer cast into the underside of the lever cap.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    22,957
    Blog Entries
    1
    Your plane's lateral adjuster is the Sargent type; with the simple 90 degree twist to form the lever.
    The 90 twist was used by a few manufacturers. Union & Ohio tools used this:

    Brass City Frog Maker & Lateral Adj Image.jpg

    After Stanley purchased Union Plane Mfg it also appeared on some of their second tier planes.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Lombard, IL
    Posts
    15
    This W4 plane has the bedrock-style frog-to-base plate (I call it "frog on rails"), so even though the lateral adjuster has the twist at the end, the base indicates that this is Stanley/Bedrock origin. Also, the Keen Kutter K-series planes (documented to be made by Stanley) were the same - Bedrock style frog-to-base mount and twist at the end of the lateral adjuster. To me, it seems like my W4 is almost identical to a Keen Kutter K4. So maybe when Winchester merged with Simmons Hardware (which sold Keen Kutter products) in 1922, they went to Stanley and said build us a series of K-style planes, but just substitute a "W" for the "K" on the plane bed. One other difference is that the Keen Kutter planes have no logo on their lever cap whereas Winchester went to the expense to putting their logo on it.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    22,957
    Blog Entries
    1
    So maybe when Winchester merged with Simmons Hardware (which sold Keen Kutter products) in 1922, they went to Stanley and said build us a series of K-style planes, but just substitute a "W" for the "K" on the plane bed.
    Stanley purchased Union Plane Mfg in ~1920. The Union lateral adjuster was a simpler process to make than the typical Stanley tiller style. They may have used these as a way to lower costs when making private brand planes.

    Changing a few letters on casting patterns is fairly easy.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #12
    I think the Winchester is essentially the same as the Keen Kutter single K models (such as K4). But the Winchester name brings a higher price on the used market than the identical Keen Kutter plane.

    Also, there are a lot more Keen Kutter planes than Winchester planes.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    22,957
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    I think the Winchester is essentially the same as the Keen Kutter single K models (such as K4). But the Winchester name brings a higher price on the used market than the identical Keen Kutter plane.

    Also, there are a lot more Keen Kutter planes than Winchester planes.

    Mike
    There are a lot more people who know and like Winchester branded collectables whereas not very many people have heard of the Keen Kutter brand. Old Stanley round sided Bedrock planes are likely to price higher than the same with the Keen Kutter brand.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
    Posts
    9,491
    Ok..went on a rust hunt today...and found..
    two Stall Rust Hunt, K-4 plane,.JPG
    This Keen Kutter K 4....
    two Stall Rust Hunt, OUCH.JPG
    A bit too rich for my wallet...same stall had..
    two Stall Rust Hunt, W-4, .JPG
    Price tag says $65....Winchester W 4...smooth sole...nearby was this..
    two Stall Rust Hunt, W-6c, .JPG
    $80 for a W 6c....neither of the Winchesters had a frog adjust bolt. The K-4 did, however....That shingling hatchet?
    two Stall Rust Hunt, logo, hatchet.JPG
    and a Trans Plane..
    two Stall Rust Hunt, wooden plane.JPG

    Plenty to chose from..today..
    two Stall Rust Hunt, Plane Bin.JPG...

    Bought a Stanley #5, instead...
    2 Stall Rust Hunt, port side view.JPG
    At $20..might have overspent?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Lombard, IL
    Posts
    15
    I believe those 2 Winchester planes in your photos were made by Sargent and sold by Winchester, and therefore not a W4/W5/etc. model.
    The Sargent-style planes seem to all have a 4-digit model number cast into the bed behind the frog, instead of the "W" model number cast in front of the knob.
    These do not have the frog adjustment screw like the Stanley/Bedrock version.
    If you peruse the auction sites, the Winchester planes available are almost always the Sargent style, leading me to believe that Winchester sold many more of these than the "W" version made by Stanley.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •