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Thread: Blue Stanly Made in USA Bench Planes is there something wrong with these Type 20

  1. #1
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    Blue Stanly Made in USA Bench Planes is there something wrong with these Type 20

    I am wanting to buy a bench plane specifically Stanley #5. In looking around it appears that the Blue 60's made in USA are in better condition and less expensive. Is the price because the older ons really aren't as good or because you have collectors that don't really use them but just collect? I have heard that the Blue painted Stanley USA made ones are just not as good as the old pre 1960's planes. Do you think that is true or is there a bit of plain old plane snoberry? I know guitars very well not as well as others and only have 16 currently that I play. Some of my guitar bretheren think a 1960's Gibson ES330 or ES335 is so much better than any later USA made from 70's to the current new production guitars. IMO and my 50+ years of guitar experience iI know this is not a fact, and definitely not always true. Many new production guitars today are even better than a lot of older vintage ones. Anyway, back to planes I want a get a very good working Stanley #5 to actually use. Your advice please on Blue vs Black





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    Last edited by Raye Boals; 01-15-2021 at 3:53 PM.

  2. #2
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    Many new production guitars today are even better than a lot of older vintage ones. Anyway, back to planes I want a get a very good working Stanley #5 to actually use. Your advice please on Blue vs Black
    You have already figured out this curiosity. It is pretty much a crap shoot.

    Some of the later planes are fine users. Some were put together on Mondays by hungover disgruntled workers.

    I have heard that the Blue painted Stanley USA made ones are just not as good as the old pre 1960's planes. Do you think that is true or is there a bit of plain old plane snoberry?
    Engineering a mass produced product is a balance between improving the product and improving the profits. In ~1902 (type 9) Stanley product engineers came up with a way to improve the output of casting plane soles. This had the added benefit of improving the product for users. In the later 1930s changes were made that did more to improve profits than to improve the product.

    After WWII there was a big change in the world of tools. More power tools were coming into use in home shops and less need for the vast array of planes and hand tools. Other changes in the occupations of the general public also had an effect on this. Before the war many workers would go from job to job as one was finished and they had to adjust to doing something else. My dad used to tell me about how in his day people had to know how to do a lot of different jobs. After the war more people were finding secure employment in what would become life long jobs.

    By the late 1950s & early 1960s plane makers were in a race to the bottom. Trying to capture a diminishing market. Plane castings were a bit rougher than in previous years. More was done to cut costs than to improve useful qualities.

    Yes, some of the blue bodied planes may be fine users.

    For a post on a problem with a 'later era' plane > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....ley-frog-issue

    My preference is for type 13 or earlier. As long as the plane hasn't been abused, it will likely be easy to tune into a good user.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #3
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    I have rehabbed a few Bailey's now, only got beat buy one of them. I have two Baileys that are post WWII production, one was my grandfathers and the other I got for $15 as part of a larger craigslist deal because neither the seller or me could break a 20.

    As Jim said, it is a crap shoot. I am not a collector. I am a wood worker, I want good quality tools but I simply cannot afford a full set of new premium bench planes from Lie-Nielsen or Veritas.

    The ideal way to buy a Bailey of any vintage is to handle it in person before purchase. Cracks in the body casting are a deal breaker unless the size is one you really want badly enough to have spare parts. Can you line up the cutting edge of the blade visibly square to the sole surface the plane rides on? Can you repair chips and broken off bits of wood on the handles? Do the adjustments work smoothly?

    Finally, take off the lever cap, loosen the screw on the chip breaker, and slide the chip breaker down the slot so you can see the back side of the iron. This is where I put a lot of planes back on the shelf. I often find rust pits in this area that render the blade unusable, un sharpenable, there is no place to put an edge that doesn't pass through a pit. In dry climates like Arizona this may not be a problem.

    The ideal user Bailey for me to find is pre WWII mfr, dusty dusty dusty from sitting for years, no rust, no cracking, iron sharpened and sharpened and sharpened down to almost a nub, and somewhere that doesn't interfere with function an owner's mark or initials. Somebody had this plane working well enough to carve their name in it, used it enough to about wear out the iron, and nobody has screwed with it since then. Perfect. Clean it up, new iron, go to work.

  4. #4
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    Wow, that was very informative and an interesting read. The context around the situation; very nice...

    I have some newer planes that were not very good. One of them I threw up my hands and headed over to Steven Newman's place 45 minutes away. We never made it a great plane, but we made it usable. Hopefully there is someone near you in Springfield Oregon that can help you if you end up with something that is not a good user. Steve refurbish these all the time, I guess I never asked him what he does with them; but he does keep buying them and fixing them.

    My first plane I was so confused and worried that I finally just ordered Lie Nielsen plane. I did not know that Sawmillcreek existed at that time.

  5. #5
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    I have at least one of each Stanley, multiples of some, and there will be few people alive now that have planed more square feet with one than me. With that said, I don't know what type number a single one of them is, because it makes no difference to me. I bought them before they were in great demand, and never bothered to buy one that needed any work on the body, but never took into consideration when any one was made. If it's usable without a lot of work, I don't see anything wrong with it.

    I think Warren won a planing competition with a Stanley Handyman.

  6. #6
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    One doesn't HAVE to look at just Bailey/Stanley planes......perhaps a Sargent VBM No. 414? Maybe a Millers Falls No. 14? I do have a Stanley No. 5, Type 17....that I keep a cambered iron in....The others are not quite cambered, and make darn good long bodied smoothers....



    Not all Blue painted ones are bad, and not all are good.....Stay away from the Handyman ones....

  7. #7
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    My advice is to see if you can pick up the #5 that Tom Bussey has for sale in the classifieds. He labeled the thread #4. Looks like a nice plane that is ready to go to work at a fair price.

  8. #8
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    One doesn't HAVE to look at just Bailey/Stanley planes......perhaps a Sargent VBM No. 414? Maybe a Millers Falls No. 14?
    Many makers made great usable planes back in the day.

    Though a few other brands have passed through my shop my preference is for Stanley/Bailey planes for a few reasons. They are the most common brand available in my area. It is also easier to keep spare parts organized with one brand as opposed to three or four.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  9. #9
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    Looks like Tom Bussey's might be gobbled up –– no surprise. He's a rare one.

    So in keeping with that, you want to buy a vintage Stanley from a reliable, ethical seller (like Tom), someone who intends to stay in business long after selling to you. eBay has many know-nothing sellers, but still manages to show up with some winners from time to time. Some postings have explicit photos and informative verbal descriptions. You can tell from the description if the seller is knowledgeable and if the plane will require a lot of work. You'll get what you pay for there, more than likely, if you're careful. I have a beautiful and functional Bed Rock 607 and a comparable No. 5-1/2 through eBay. Each was more than $100 less than a Lie-Nielsen, and I liked the true vintage nature of them (my Bed Rock will be 99 this year), so that source was a good bet for me. Be choosy and be prepared to wait a few weeks. Ask questions. Don't ever bid; only buy "Buy It Now."

    I've read with incredulity many posters here who claim to have raided eBay with a vintage beauty for $60. May the Force be with them. I am no Jedi.

    Also, Patrick Leach distributes a monthly list of tools of many kinds, and there are always at least a handful of very attractive Baileys or Bed Rocks. His prices are not "cheap," but considerably less than a Lie-Nielsen counterpart plane would be. Email him to get on his list:

    leach@supertool.com

    Does Oregon have tool events or auctions? I see SMC midwesterners coming away with steals near them. I'm in the Bay Area: forget that here.

    Finally, Tooltique in England restores his Stanleys to pristine condition. Purists will wince because he polishes them up pretty. But he also ensures that the planes are in exceptional working order (no buyer guesswork or pesky restoring needed). This could be a swell way to acquire a like-new vintage Stanley for folks who would rather not go through the dirty work of restoring. I haven't bought a Bailey there, but I got a clean vintage No. 151R spokeshave there at a good price, although you might spend a few pounds for postage.

    If you want to buy a top-quality Stanley for $60, you might end up disappointed. But if you go for quality, a few months after a really good one arrives in the mail, you'll forget what you paid for it.

    Good luck.

  10. #10
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    I pulled the trigger on what I believe is an almost mint 1933 to 1941 type 16 Stanley Bailey 5. The seller listed it as "Stanley Bailey No. 5 Sole Jack Plane" called it a school plane. At first glance I figured it was a type 20 but it wasn't blue. Checked it out some more and bought it.
    s-l1600 (16).jpg. s-l1600 (10).jpg
    Last edited by Raye Boals; 01-15-2021 at 7:26 PM.

  11. #11
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    Nice. Pristine. You'll enjoy that one. Type 16, as Jim K. said, was a transitional era that brought Stanley up to the war. It was the first with the outlined frog face instead of a solid face.

    Have fun with it.

  12. #12
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    Hi Ray
    If I still lived in Springfield, I'd let you try a few different of my stanleys.
    I'm no expert like these guys, but my very first plane was the cheapest okay looking blue #4 off of eBay I could find. (Before I knew anything about types and such). I tried lapping the bottom (because that's what I thought I was supposed to do) ultimately gave up, at less than perfect and sharpened the iron and went to work building my bench. It's no different in use than my other older #4. The only thing that's really different from my older planes is the handle refinement and shape.

    Also you probably already know this, but there is a couple of great tool sellers In springfield / eugene.

    One is Lance's tools , I understand he's moved to Glenwood now.

    And the other guy which moved, used to have a huge tool booth at time traveler's antique's in springfield. All he sold was old hand tools, and prices were fair, I bought quite a few of my tools from his booth including a nice#5. I stopped in springfield about a month ago to see some family and his booth was no longer there. I asked and they said he moved to Eugene ( I think) you may want to reach out to them and find out where he moved to.

  13. #13
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    I was going to check out Lance tools soon he was a year or so behind me in high school I drive by his place on the way to climb Mt. Pisgah. I will find out where the other guy moved. Thanks for the tip.

  14. #14
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    Does Oregon have tool events or auctions? I see SMC midwesterners coming away with steals near them. I'm in the Bay Area: forget that here.
    Some of my best tool finds were in the Bay Area when that was my home.

    You just got to keep looking.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  15. #15
    The plane you bought has been recently cleaned ( by you or the seller?) to make it look that way. It also is a plane made up of parts of different vintages; type 16 and 17. My guess is that this is an early wartime plane; or it could be a "school" plane, as you were told by the seller. That said, it does appear to be in good shape except for the iron, which is pretty used-up. Hock irons make great replacements. If the sole is reasonably flat, that could be a good user.
    Last edited by Mike Brady; 01-16-2021 at 4:07 PM.

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