Bailey frog issue

[Scott Winners]

Went to the sticky threads, reveiwed articles there both by Mr. Smallser and Mr. Koepke. Neither addressed my specific issue in a way I understood, in what I read.

What I have is a #3 smoother, type 15, very low miles. With the lateral adjuster lever all the way to the right it takes a deeper cut on the left side of the iron, when viewed from the rear. I haven't used it much, haven't needed it. Today I needed it.

So I opened it up and realized the frog, viewed from above, was twisted clockwise. The left edge of the left toe of the frog was flush on the mouth, the right edge of the right toe was almost an eighth back. I ended up with the everything apart except I left the adjustment lever and depth cam on the frog. I found what I think was a sand grain on the right side of the frog under the factory paint. So I filed that off, trial fit, no joy. Found some gunk down in corners and since my hands were dirty I just trued the whole thing up- to the limits of my technology.

I have a 12 inch file for exactly stuff like this. I do not have the technology to say the bedding surface of the frog is flat to some number. With a straight edge on it, it looks flat The seating surface of the frog looks flat. The undersides of the toes of the frog look flat. Pictured is as close as I could get it today, the right toe is still back from the mouth, but a lot less than when I started.

Now I can get a flat/level cut with it, if the lever is all the way to the right; but if I bump the lever on the backstroke the lever flops back to center and the next cut will be deeper on the left. So it isn't actually usable.

My core planes are 4, 4 1/2, 5 and 5 1/2. All I need a number 3 for is whisper thin occasional erasing of pencil marks. I don't want to setup a machine shop, don't have room, time or interest for that. My core user planes are setup well enough that power tool guys routinely ask what grit I sand too and I can tell them the surface is right off the tool, no sanding. I am not that good on my lathe yet, but flat things I have under control.

Also, I wonder if someone over the years who missed the sand grain under the factory paint might have swapped out the lever cap. The lever cap I have only reaches about a quarter of the way up the rise in the cap iron, on all my good working Baileys the lever cap reaches half to two thirds of the way up the rise in the cap iron.

So what are my options that include integrity? This could be a great user if someone can get the frog seated correctly, but I am not going to sell it as a user, it is a fixer upper. Can I trade it to someone with some dollars from me to level the scales? Is there anyone here with more of a metalwork shop than I have willing to take a shot at it while I wait? What if I bury it in the snow at the next full moon and BBQ some chicken feet?

Thanks

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[Ralph Boumenot]

Check the frog for twist. Also check the end of the yoke that engages the slot in the chipbreaker. I ve had this same problem several times and corrected all adjusting these two things.

[Tom Bussey]

On earlier types the frog fit the center piece a lot closer or more of slip fit. That helps the front of the frog from moving all over the country side. Planes of of a different vintage like Bedrock round and flat side, Keen Kutter K series, and I believe Lie Nielsen solved that problem because there is no side movement in these planes.

The earlier type Stanley Bailey planes had a closer fit at the front of the frog which helps. Just snug the two screws that hold the frog on. If you loosen and then just snug the frog adjusting screw plate one can also help move the back of the frog. Put the blade chip breaker and lever cap back on and line up the blade with the front of the mouth When you have everything lined up to what you want, then tighten the frog adjusting clip screw

The design of the frog is a square. Meaning both the bottom machining on the frog and the body are the same. I wrote a short piece on planes a while back but people think that if it has threads it has to be super tightened down. Well they don't. If you have the frog just tightened so that you can move the frog forward and back with the frog adjusting screw it is good enough. since the frog adjusting clip controls the back of the frog and you are not moving much you can move the mouth forward to close up the through or open it up without re adjusting the blade. On the bedrock flat side you can move the frog forward or backward with out taking the cutter off but you still have to readjust the cutter. up or down. there is no adjustment needed if the Stanley is correctly tightened down.

[Jim Koepke]

Scott, if the frog can not rotate enough you may have to file a little off of the inside of the frogs notch.

Here is an excerpt from my post on the subject:

[QUOTE]Adjusting the Frog was made easier by the addition of a simple plate and screw set up on Stanley/Bailey bench planes in about 1907, this was used first on Bedrock planes and then on Bailey style bench planes starting with type 10.

Adjustment Plate.jpg

In order to rotate the frog when adjusting the seating, it may be necessary to loosen the screw that mounts the plate. In some cases, it may be necessary to remove the adjustment plate completely and file a little metal off of the top to allow the plate to move enough to facilitate frog rotation. Before doing a lot of work to correct the frog seating, be sure it is not due to the blade's edge not being sharpened square to the slot in the blade.

Occasionally, to allow for enough rotation, it may be necessary to remove a little metal in the groove at the bottom of the frog. A smooth file is best for this procedure. Only remove as much as is needed. Usually only a few light strokes are required.

Filing.jpg

Hopefully this helps. A few planes from this period in production have also vexed me.

The problem with the lever cap might be easier to spot with an image of the back side. This might reveal if any material was removed from the lever cap to remove a chip.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

Thanks for the input so far. I got a pic of the back of the lever cap.

Also, this frog is covered with bits of sand under the factory paint, there is at least 2 on the front face of the ridge of the body between the frog toes. By taking off the high spots of the toes between the toes - like in Jim's second picture in the preceding post- I have the toes lined up square to the mouth opening, but the frog is jammed all the way to one side.

The mouth is a tiny bit out of square to the body, less than 1/32". I will go get all my squares out and look at it some more. The edge is square to the edges of the iron, I used an Eclipse style guide when I first bought it to put a secondary bevel on, I'll have to figure out if the slot in the iron is parallel to the edges somehow, never tried to measure that before. I think I will just put a square on the edge I made with the sharpening guide and see if the slot is perpendicular.

And I found the thread Jim copy/pasted from down at the bottom of the Neander stickies page, title is "fettling junker to jointer." Now i will go back out to the shop.

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[Scott Winners]

Ruled out some more stuff. The frog seats well to the body, no clicking or rocking. So I put it back together, frog toes lined up to the mouth, the frog and everything stacked on it twisted to the right sidewall.

I did touch up the edge because I had pushed it into a machinist square. I find the edge I make with my honing guide is perpendicular to the edges of the iron, and the slot in the middle of the iron is perpendicular to the ground edge.

Put all back together, all the features function, but with the adjustment lever all the way to the right it is still taking a deeper cut on the left. The lever cap does butt up against the side wall and does not want to cam shut politely.

So I took it apart again and centered the frog in the body. No rocking or clicking. I can fasten the frog back to the body this way, but look where the toes are.

I could just stick the tip of the long toe up against a grinding wheel, but I think (I am asking) for a proper job the entire bedding surface would need to be re-lapped, taking just a tiny whisper of the edge with the short toe and a fair bit of material from the edge with the longer toe, and establishing a new flat plane between those two lines. I think.

Open to other ideas, but if I am right about the machine work I should start looking for a replacement frog or a whole other plane. The bedding surface is flat. I just laid in on a couple different plywood scraps and a piece of plate glass. The bedding surface doesn't rock, doesn't show any light. I think the bedding surface is just not lying in the correct plane, or rather a correct enough plane for the lateral adjustment lever to finish squaring up the edge to the sole.

[steven c newman]

Looks from here to be an issue with the mouth opening...more than with the frog....Use you square across the sole, right across the rear of the opening...

Take a depth gauge....that raised bar in front of the mouth opening....Measure from there to the frog....on both sides of the frog's face. Then report back...

BTW...look down at the bolts holding the frog in place....are they in the same spot in their slot, as the other bolt....?If not...make them match each other, and then see how things go.


Worst case......someone had lapped too much off the sole on one side....sole would still show as flat....until you set the plane down on a flat surface.....you might find it has a slight "list to Port"....

[Scott Winners]

Thank you Steven for finding another problem.

The outside of the plane is square. The side walls both bow in a little bit back towards the heel, but the front 2/3s are square to themselves, and when I set the sole on plate glass both side walls of the body are perpendicular to the glass. The mouth opening is within 1/32 of square to the sides.

However, the platforms for the toes of the frog are indeed different thickness. With the sole on plate glass the platform under the left toe (right side of picture) measures 0.100" off the glass, the other platform is 0.065" off the glass. If I rock the frog in its bedding, opening up a 0.035 gap under the right toe, it looks like it might line up pretty good.

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EDIT. I put a small coil of 037 solder on the low platform and set the frog back in. The frog now mates very poorly with the bedding pillows of the body, but the alignment looks vastly improved.

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[Jim Koepke]

It is difficult to tell from the image but the lever cap does look a little short.

All the #3 size lever caps on my planes measure from 1-1/4" to 1-3/8" from the bottom of the cap screw hole to the edge.

None of your images have shown the lateral lever. Does it have Stanley stamped on it?

One possibility is you might have a frog from another plane.

Also, this frog is covered with bits of sand under the factory paint, there is at least 2 on the front face of the ridge of the body between the frog toes. By taking off the high spots of the toes between the toes - like in Jim's second picture in the preceding post- I have the toes lined up square to the mouth opening, but the frog is jammed all the way to one side.

If the sand under the paint isn't interfering with seating the blade or frog it is of no concern.

What is preventing the frog from being centered?

The frog adjusting plate may need to be loosened or possibly filed a little bit if that is the cause.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

What is preventing the frog from being centered?

jtk

I think this is the million dollar question. The short answer is I don't know for sure. It seems like the solder shim under the right toe has the bedding plane of the frog in good location relative to the sole and sidewalls, but I had to put one screw into the frog just to hold it like that because the frog as pictured is only touching the body in a few points.

Some other pictures. The frog adjusting plate is currently not installed. I did file one corner down a bit this morning so I could put everything together with frog twisted all the way up against the right sidewall. The thing I am thinking of as the frog adjusting plate, and its two screws, are on the right hand margin of one pic, between the wood pieces.

Width of lever cap where it presses on the chip breaker is between 1 11/16 and 1 12/16, am comfortable calling it a scant 1 3/4 inches.

[Jim Koepke]

Have you checked across the toes of the frog for square?

The frog should be touching the body on both toes and seated on the back evenly. If not it is important to determine why.

This plane may benefit by a replacement frog and lever cap.

jtk

[steven c newman]

More likely a replacement base...

[Scott Winners]

I think one of you two is correct. I either need a new frog, or a new base, or some millwork. I have a metals guy here in Fairbanks who does a lot of 4WD drivetrain work but likes to do challenging stuff in his down time. I farm out metal work I can't do for my church's BBQ team to him, but his minimum charge to sneeze on a piece of metal is $100. Not economical.

I am putting this plane in the for sale section here, with a link to this thread and full disclosure that it is not in good working order. It has clearly never been set up to work correctly since it left the factory in the early 1930s, all the other parts have very little use on them, though the bolt holding the rear toe down does have a bend in it.

Thanks for your help, I am throwing in the towel on this one.

[Robert Hazelwood]

Another approach - just live with the frog how it is. Bailey planes can tolerate quite a bit of lateral adjustment/skew and still feed well (unlike, say, a traditional wooden plane). So if you have enough lateral adjustment to get the edge parallel to the sole, then it should be usable. If the lateral adjustment is moving during use, then you should tighten the lever cap screw until it stays put.

If you don't have enough lateral adjustment, you can intentionally sharpen the blade out of square so that it ends up parallel to the sole when the lateral adjuster is roughly centered.

[Jim Koepke]

At the price you want it is tempting for the parts.

If you are going to rehab a few planes you might consider starting a parts supply.

jtk