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Thread: benchtop material versus holdfast wear

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
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    benchtop material versus holdfast wear

    Or something like that.

    My benchtop is laminated Doug Fir 2x4 construction lumber, two years old this month. So pretty well seasoned, hasn't left my shop since I built it, nominal 3.5" thick.

    What I am noticing is Doug Fir loses against holdfasts time after time after time. Only a tiny bit, but it gives way every time.

    I have a pair of holes I put one year ago, when the bench had seasoned in my my shop as a bench top for one year. I drilled at 0.984, one current hole is 1.159" end grain to end grain x 1.076 face grain to face grain, an oval, the other (I didn't measure) feels similar under the hammer.

    The holes still work, but I have to whack harder to get the holdfasts to grip, and they want to twist towards the major diameter under the hammer. The three original (and most used) holes I put in at 0.989 are quite worn, but I can still get a good grip with the second whack.

    FWIW I am using Crucible holdfasts at nominal one inch, have a dedicated drill bit for new holdfast holes and currently drilling 0.980 for new new holdfast holes. The tighter the hole, the less I have to womp to get the holdfast to grip.

    I hope to build a new longer bench in the next couple years (six foot length instead of four) and wonder what I can do in advance to limit wear on the next bench top hold fast holes. My local hardwood purveyor handles a fair bit of 8/4 in both hickory and white oak as both are desirable for runners for dog sleds. Yellow pine I have never seen up here. All the Ash I see up here, so far, has unacceptable runout/ short grain. Hard maple I can get, though it seems to be my nemesis. 8/4 Poplar is also plentiful and not easily rived, but I am predisposed to think of it as boat building wood.

    FWIW I am totally satisfied with Doug Fir for a bench top in every way accept for the holdfasts chewing up the endgrain of the holdfast holes.

    Local to me I can grab 4x6 SGRN Doug Fir frim the BORG for about $2.90 per bf. I am perfectly happy with DF for legs and stretchers, it is stout stuff.
    Local rough sawn birch is $10.33/ bf, also in 8/4 I can get hard maple for 9.40, hickory 11.15, white oak 9.26, Ash 9.05, and tulip poplar 9.18.

    Yes, I do throw up in my mouth a little when I read about some of you grabbing white oak for $2.50/bf. My local guy doesn't carry jarrah. Exotics start at $25/bf and go up fast.

    What are you running holdfasts in and happy with? I am leaning towards a hickory top with Doug Fir undercarriage for my next build.

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    From your post it seems a harder wood is needed. Though one that doesn't deform or split easily. My current bench, a Söberg, has a top of European beech if my memory is working. Driving holdfasts has caused some splitting.

    My thought for your next bench is if it would be good to run a strip of something like maple for the dog holes and make the rest out of something less expensive.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #3
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    maybe you dont have to change your top at all, but make some square inlays of a harder and better wearing wood at the holes?

    I also have a doug fir top, and havent noticed any larger deformation of the holes. But I use gramercy holdfasts, which maybe are smoother on the surface than yours.

  4. #4
    Scott,

    My last builds have had European Beech slabs which hold up well, Beech makes a very nice bench, with fine grain, hard enough yet easy to work with hand tools, and for some reason here in AZ it is cheaper than most other hard woods. I've built benches using DF and SYP, I have one DF bench in the shop and two SYP benches (one is over 40 years old) in the back garden all three have held up well but they do not get used as often as the Beech benches. I use "Black Bear Forge" and Gramercy 3/4" holdfasts, that could make a difference.

    A 6'X2'X3" slab is only 40BF, with waste allowance 60BF total to make the slab out of a good slab wood and the rest using DF you should be able to bring the new bench in for well under $1000 USD depending on vises used.

    BTW, I cannot imagine the work of making a Hickory slab with hand tools, if you go that route you are a lot more "manly" than I am .

    ken

  5. #5
    Before I made a new top I would order one of these copies of the old Record design. https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/bench-holdfast.aspx

  6. #6
    I agree with Jim in regards to using maple for your dog holes. You also maybe could see if you could het a piece of beech from a local sawyer because it isn't a common commercial hardwood.
    "The key to a long life is when you start to die, don't"

  7. #7
    I have the same setup. I too have noticed the Dog holes deforming from the Holdfasts. I will tell you though, that what really changed the holding power on my Holdfasts was counter drilling from the bottom up and enlarging the bottom portion of the holes. That helps the Geometry work for you. I use Forged(Cats don't work for me at all, not enough spring) 5/8 inch Holdfasts in 3/4 inch dog holes. They are rock solid.
    Making a new bench is on my todo list, but at the top of the list is a new Sawstop this spring, so I don't see the bench happening for another year or so.

  8. #8
    Traditional holdfasts were forged and were flexible. The spring in the flex creates the hold. Roubo (1769) says that the arm of the holdfast should be very flexible, tres elastique, and says the whole arm should be gradually tapered down to 1/6 of an inch just before the pad. The Crucible holdfasts are cast iron, which has almost no flexibility, so you are depending on deflection in the wood to create the spring and the hold.

    I think any holdfast hole will show wear after years of use. Some of mine have been used over forty years. They show wear, but still work. For your situation, I would not worry about the problem until they stop working, then make a new hole. Daniel O'Hagan (1923-2000) made a new bench of thick Douglas fir and used it for about 25 years before he died. I don't think he had problems with holdfasts.

  9. #9
    Just a point of clarification, crucible holdfasts are made from ductile iron which is actually is fairly flexible (unlike the cast holdfasts you find cheap on Amazon and elsewhere). That said, at 1” diameter “flexible” might require some context.

    I have a DF bench at 4” thick and although it’s only a year old, I’ve had no problems with Gramarcy holdfasts (although I had already roughed them up with a hammer from a debacle with a previous bench getting oil in the holes). And the aprons on that bench in which I use the holdfasts are 3" thick.

    I think your problem is the holdfasts themselves. I was immediately dubious when the instructions say they require tight fitting holes. ALL holdfast holes will start to enlarge no matter what you build your bench from. Granted, it will be a slower process and they won’t enlarge quite as much in hard maple than DF, but it will still happen. When I first learned about these holdfasts I predicted exactly what you are experiencing. The reality is that Schwarz is not a heavy holdfast user. His number one complaint about various workbenches is when you can’t use an F-clamp on them when they have any kind of apron. So during all their “testing” he just might not have abused a bench enough for it to matter. The business person in my also thinks the 1” straight shaft is more finding a market space than anything else.

    Usually a holdfast tends to work better as the hole gets worn in. But most holdfasts take advantage of pronounced cant in the hold. The Crucible ones don’t really cant (no space in the tight fitting holes they require). So you can’t do the common trick of counterboring from the underside. I would think that would only make the problem worse in your case as that would allow for more canting and canting seems to be your problem (unless you got oil in those specific holes and not the others).

    So what to do???!!?!?

    I don’t have an answer, but I can brainstorm what I would try if I were in your shoes.

    1. Rosin. You can buy it any place that sells stringed instruments (it’s used for the bow to literally grab the string) or on Amazon for just a couple dollars. Either rub it on the contact points (front and back sides of the shaft) on the holdfast or break off a small piece and with some needle nose pliers rub it around the top and bottom lips of the hole. That should provide a good amount of grip. I used this exact trick after discovered I had drunk drilled one of my holdfast holes to the point where it would not hold in one direction. After that little trick it sticks better than any of the other holes (applied once right after building and never needed to re-apply).

    2. If that doesn’t work, I’d try making the hole DEEPER because of the design of that particular holdfast. Glue a block of wood onto the bottom and drill it out. That way the holdfast can’t tilt as much in the hole which, according to Schwarz, is something you don’t want with this holdfast. If it doesn’t work, you can chisel the block off.

    3. Like someone mentioned, mortise out a square section around a hole and replace it with something harder. Although I think eventually you will still have this problem (my theory, untested!). Obviously this is non-reversible, and time consuming, which is why it’s 3rd on the list.

    4. Plug the old holes and drill new ¾” holes and get ¾” holdfasts. I’ve seen lots of old benches with plugged holes. Check out Peter Follansbee – he’s got more plugged holes than open holes! https://youtu.be/XyLA1PH1Aqo?t=500

  10. #10
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    Scott, I read an article somewhere a few years ago about someone with the same problem as you, but I think the holes were 3/4". But you could still do as he did,maybe.

    He bought copper pipe used for water or the heavier walled pipe used for baseboard hot water heat, and cut to correct length as benchtop thickness and press fit it into benchtop. It grabbed the hodlfasts well and lasted. will be doing this with my bench when it is needed.

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    I’ve got a Douglas fir workbench with a top less than 3” thick and use gramercy holdfasts. I’ve also noticed the holes getting wallowed out. Mine still seem to work fine, so I expect I can keep using them for years before needing to do anything.

    I expect at some point I’ll build a new bench with a hardwood top and an end vise. The copper pipe idea is intriguing. I almost want to glue up a chunk of wood and mock it up to see how it works.

  12. #12
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    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by michael langman View Post
    Scott, I read an article somewhere a few years ago about someone with the same problem as you, but I think the holes were 3/4". But you could still do as he did,maybe.

    He bought copper pipe used for water or the heavier walled pipe used for baseboard hot water heat, and cut to correct length as benchtop thickness and press fit it into benchtop. It grabbed the hodlfasts well and lasted. will be doing this with my bench when it is needed.
    seems like a nightmare to flatten that benchtop when needed. Unless the pipe is easy to back out again.

  13. #13
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    Construction 2 x 4s are the fastest growth, softest wood your ccan buy. Maybe rip some 2 x 12s and insert some hard maple for the dog hoke strip and holdfast strip.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Curt Putnam View Post
    Construction 2 x 4s are the fastest growth, softest wood your ccan buy. Maybe rip some 2 x 12s and insert some hard maple for the dog hoke strip and holdfast strip.
    My benchtop is exactly that - laminated 2x4's from the BORG. So it's perhaps 3" thick and soft. I use Grammercy holdfasts and 3/4" dog holes. I havent noticed any appreciable changes in the holes in 10 years. Maybe the smaller diameter Grammercy's flex more than the 1" Crucibles? No idea. But I'm not seeing dog hole damage, FWIW.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  15. #15
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    Good discussion, lots of good points, thanks.

    One reason I went to the Crucibles is the reach. Including the pad under the foot I can clamp 10, not quite 10.125 off the bench top. Pictured is a piece of 8/4 poplar and I don't remember why I have it clamped that way. After I had legs in it I clamped it that way again with the feet hanging off the front of the bench so I could cut the legs to length.


    It isn't something I do every day, but last winter I did bring in about 12 feet each of 8x8 and 4x10. My take home from last winter's shenanigans is if I am going to build a timber framed retirement cottage I will be using a gas or electric powered chain mortiser. They (the holdfasts) are heavy, almost five pounds each IIRC, but they hold like the fist of Zeus. I love 'em.

    The first three holes that went in when the bench was new and moist are the ones wallowed out enough for the holdfast to want to twist under the hammer. I have them lined up with the removeable bench dog on my face vise. I will start by looking for a scrap of two year seasoned Doug Fir to mortise into the bench top where the sloppiest hole is, see if that lasts longer.

    I did measure the endgrain on my top lamination. The fastest grown one has a legitimate 2 growth rings per inch, maybe 2.1, not 2.3 or 2.5. The slowest grown one has eleven rings per inch.

    I am frankly relieved to hear some folks are using Doug Fir tops with good overall results. I suspect I just went over the line a little bit whacking mortises into 8x8s with a 1.5" chisel and a 3# mallet, repeatedly. Doug Fir has a lot of fabulous structural properties and is a material I have a lot of respect for, not sure I would pay shipping on it if I lived back east. Other than the hold fast holes that I probably abused I am thoroughly satisfied with DF as a bench top in every other way.

    Digging a little bit in my phone I did find one pic of testing myself on timber frame rafter math, though I executed this one in 4x6- only now I can't find it rooting around in my phone while it is connected to my PC.

    20210105_205508[1].jpg20210105_205452[1].jpg

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