Picked up a used Shaper - looking for advice on tooling, etc.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks Joe for the reply. My short list of cutterheads is a rebate block and adjustable groover at this point, based on what I expect to use the machine for.

Not much to update at this point: I ordered a dial caliper and thread pitch gauge about 3 weeks ago and have yet to receive them...the mail is a complete mess right now and everything seems either lost or massively delayed. My intent with getting these measuring tools is to precisely measure the existing spindle and threads and try and source a suitable spindle nut replacement. No luck in finding an OEM replacement in this 1” size as SCM doesn’t recognize 1” as stock spindle size for the T100.

I did receive my copy of the Spindle Moulder Handbook a few days ago and have thumbed through it and read parts of it so far. Seems like a great resource.

After seeing that the spindle wrench was available from SCM at a cost of $185, I fabricated my own out of some pipe hardware I got at the hardware store for about $12 in parts and an hour or so with an angle grinder and some drills bits. The disappointing news is that I’m unable to break the spindle loose. So far I’ve worked up to a 40” cheater bar (3/4” black pipe) slipped over my smaller 1/2” diameter bar. I’m about 90% sure I’m going the right way based on the way the spindle spins, spindle nut locks and what I’ve read online from others’ experience. Really only trying to remove it at this point to measure it with the dial calipers when they arrive so I can know what the taper is and possibly have more options for replacement with 1 1/4” when/if one shows up. It’s not even budging and is just bending my 1/2” rod. Is this a place for penetrating oil or should I just leave it alone?

Last question - for a cutterhead like a Euroblock that is 2” or so tall, can I use T bushings (one above and one below) with the empty space /no contact in the middle of the inside of the cutterhead bore or is it advisable to use the taller, sleeved style T bushings that provide more contact in the middle of the bore? Going to order some spacers from CCG Schmidt or Tools Today and wondering if I should get some of the taller, sleeved T bushings?

Thanks as always for the insight and advice!

[Kevin Jenness]

Definitely try penetrating oil. I have used PB Blaster, some swear by KRoil and some like acetone mixed with automatic transmission fluid. Give it some time, then try it. Some judiciously applied heat may help break it loose. Loose is ccw seen from above.

The t-bushings will be fine with the Euro block imo.

[brent stanley]

Hi Phillip, lots of folks will just use those T bushings top and bottom with smaller blocks, but I always add sleeves to the taller blocks. The unfortunate thing is it's generally frowned on to use bushings and adaptors with adjustable groovers and similar.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I am turning the spindle collar counter clockwise viewed from above. No luck breaking it free yet.

Out of curiosity, why no bushings with adjustable groovers?

Ok, next dumb metal question - I measured the thread pitch of the spindle with the gauge that finally arrived. It’s 14 TPI; metric was close to 1.75, but not exact and 14 TPI was exact. I actually picked up a 1” 14 TPI grade 8 nut from the local hardware store when I was in there for something else a few weeks ago and noticed that it threaded on the spindle like it was the proper thread pitch, but it’s a bit loose once it’s on. Meaning that there is a small amount of play back and forth / side to side. I looked on McMaster Carr earlier this evening and have found several 1” 14 tpi nuts to choose from, but is there a chance that there’s a different thread standard (or some other variation?) between the hardware store grade 8 nut and the shaper spindle, even though it’s also 1” and 14 tpi? This seems like it should be simpler than it is, but for some reason I can’t get it properly sorted out yet....makes me think the current spindle was bastardized and isn’t OEM. What am I missing? One of these days the dial calipers I ordered will show up and I’ll have a more accurate way to measure these metal parts and pieces.

[Mel Fulks]

I wouldn't worry about it. The spindle nuts are usually pretty loose. It's possible that is intentional , as that would make
it tighten itself. But of course that bit of cleverness would not do much good with the smooth top and bottom type knife edges...
Might just give auto Bon Boyage to the knives as they take "the next flight out". When using the smooth at top and
bottom knives, tighten the nut with your fingers...NOT the wrench. Then try to move the two knives...with your fingers.
If you can not move the knives with your fingers, then tighten the nut with the wrench. Remember the steel knife bars
are sold in nominal sizes. There is no attempt to make all bars of a size work together. Any mixing of two bars to make
a "happy couple" must start with neither side trying to fly out of the marraige .

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I am turning the spindle collar counter clockwise viewed from above. No luck breaking it free yet.

Out of curiosity, why no bushings with adjustable groovers?

Ok, next dumb metal question - I measured the thread pitch of the spindle with the gauge that finally arrived. It’s 14 TPI; metric was close to 1.75, but not exact and 14 TPI was exact. I actually picked up a 1” 14 TPI grade 8 nut from the local hardware store when I was in there for something else a few weeks ago and noticed that it threaded on the spindle like it was the proper thread pitch, but it’s a bit loose once it’s on. Meaning that there is a small amount of play back and forth / side to side. I looked on McMaster Carr earlier this evening and have found several 1” 14 tpi nuts to choose from, but is there a chance that there’s a different thread standard (or some other variation?) between the hardware store grade 8 nut and the shaper spindle, even though it’s also 1” and 14 tpi? This seems like it should be simpler than it is, but for some reason I can’t get it properly sorted out yet....makes me think the current spindle was bastardized and isn’t OEM. What am I missing? One of these days the dial calipers I ordered will show up and I’ll have a more accurate way to measure these metal parts and pieces.

There are 3 classes of thread fitment. A closser tolerance nut in 1-14 threads should be readily available. Though in this application I'm not sure if it matters.

https://www.accuratescrew.com/classes-of-thread/

[Joe Calhoon]

Out of curiosity, why no bushings with adjustable groomers?

Phillip, it’s possible to use bushings with adjustable groovers, it’s just not ideal and prone to spinning a cutter if not right.
If you have to do this get a assortment of different length top hat bushings and spacers that fit the top hat bushings. For example if using a 1.25 groover on a 1” shaft have a couple lengths of bushings and assortment of 1.25 spacers (say 1mm to 5mm or so) you can use to shim on top of the cutter to adjust depth of bushing.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Just an update: some things are finally coming together it seems.

I trammed the spindle with my dial indicator and mag base. There’s a .002” dip/wear in the table right in front of the spindle area. Viewing above, if the infeed side is 6 o’clock and the outfeed side is 12 o’clock then the low spot is the area right around 9 o’clock. This is measured about 6-8” out from the spindle as that’s where my indicator on the mag base was ending up. The 6 and 12 o’clock readings were identical to the 0.0005” on my gauge.

I received 3 new poly wheels on new hubs from Western Roller yesterday. Seem like excellent folks to deal with, fair prices and fast service.

I received a couple pairs of T bushings from a fellow forum member (Thanks Mike!) Seems like they got lost in the mail for about 3 weeks, but finally arrived.

I also placed an order from Tools Today with an assortment of 1” spacers, a few more T bushings/sleeves, and a 50x125 shear cutting steel rabbeting block from Amana. Still need to sort out a way to cut grooves for a few upcoming cabinet door groove sized projects. Any recommendations?

Also placed an order with McMaster Carr yesterday afternoon at 4:15 pm for a couple of different small packs of 1”x14tpi nuts to try and hone in on the fit of the spindle nut. It showed up this morning at around 11 AM via FedEx and I live in the sticks! That is just amazing. I’ve been waiting on a different package via USPS for over 3 weeks now. Love McMaster Carr. I have the app on my phone and it’s amazing how convenient ordering from them is.

Last thing I need to do is put a plug on the power feeder and wire in another receptacle into the output of my RPC to plug it in to. Or buy a small VFD, but I don’t know if I want to bleed quite that much money at the moment.

Still no luck on breaking the existing spindle free, but I’m just going to leave it alone for a little while and use the machine with bushings for a little while to get a feel for it. Almost there...just to update and give an idea to anyone else out there who may come across this thread in the future searching for some of the same answers I was...here is a breakdown of actual costs of this auction machine so far. It’s easy for folks (myself included) to watch stuff at auction and think it’s a steal of a deal, but that’s never what the actual costs are.

-Shaper/feeder auction (with taxes, premiums, etc) - $510
-freight (from MA to NC) - $300
-electrical (plugs, etc) - $50
-misc hardware, nuts, etc - $40
-new rollers for power feeder - $150
-spacers, bushings, etc - $80

So that’s up to ~$1100 to get the machine and feeder “operational” in this case. Of course the freight was a large chunk of that cost, but still a cost nonetheless.

Thanks for the input and advice so far. I’m sure I’m not done with questions yet

[Phillip Mitchell]

There are 3 classes of thread fitment. A closser tolerance nut in 1-14 threads should be readily available. Though in this application I'm not sure if it matters.

https://www.accuratescrew.com/classes-of-thread/

Thanks Jared. I ordered a couple of different styles of 1”x14 tpi nuts from McMaster Carr and they definitely have a different / tighter fit than the hardware store nut. In fact, each one of the 3 different 1” x 14 tpi nuts I have are a slightly different fit than each other. I went down a rabbit hole the other night ready about different thread and nut standards for different industries and applications...now I know how much I don’t know. LOL

[brent stanley]

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I am turning the spindle collar counter clockwise viewed from above. No luck breaking it free yet.

Out of curiosity, why no bushings with adjustable groovers?

Hi Phillip, bushes and sleeves are of course technically possible with adjustable groovers and others but you have to be very careful. You have to have enough sleeve in there to ensure all components and shims stay centred but not so much that it prevents adequate clamping force. Some use shims that locate on pins so it's a bit easier but getting it wrong can mean spinning tooling on the shaft and kickback so it's generally not encouraged for folks newer to it.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Update: I found a used 1 1/4” spindle for the T100 from a seller on Woodweb who was selling another T100 (in nicer condition than mine) in Los Angeles. He still had the machine after about a month and ended up selling me the 1 1/4” spindle from it along with an OEM spindle wrench and some spacers for $200. The package showed up looking like it was delivered by beavers, holes in the corners of the cardboard and with a spacer missing as well as the “leverage” rod that slips through the top of the wrench that you use to tighten and loosen. Bummer...thankfully the real meat and potatoes showed up and was undamaged.

I ended buying some nuts as well as a 3’ length of high strength carbon steel 3/4” rod that fits in the holes of the pipe wrench from McMaster Carr. Finally got around to trying to loosen the old 1” spindle again now that I have a slightly better setup and it worked! It was certainly tight at first, got looser then tight again for a second but then it loosened and came right out.

The 1 1/4” spindle fits well and I measured less than 0.0005” of runout at bottom and top of the spindle. I’m almost a happy camper. Now all I lack is a few more spacers and some wiring in order to run the power feeder from my RPC and I’ll be in shaper business.

For anyone who may walk down this path after me and be uninitiated with shapers as I was - counter clockwise (from above the table) loosens the spindle to remove it. I also found a post on WoodWeb that helped me visualize what is actually happening mechanically with this particular style of spindle as it looses and tightens as the collar is double threaded. I will attach the post below.

Thanks to all that have helped thus far! This is why I love this forum.

7E46A03D-05EE-450A-8F99-98308B67234D.jpg

[Kevin Jenness]

Congratulations, Philip. I'm glad it is working out for you.

I'm still sticking with my vow to inspect used machinery in person before buying, though.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Congratulations, Philip. I'm glad it is working out for you.

I'm still sticking with my vow to inspect used machinery in person before buying, though.

I agree with you Kevin. This is the first time I’ve bought a machine sight unseen and while it is technically working out, there have been more little things that have bitten me / added up than any of my other used machine purchases...and they’re all old tools.

[Mike Kees]

Phillip ,my last shaper purchase was a Delta RS 15 made by Invicta. I bought it in May. Paid $1200 in person for the machine and a couple cutterheads. I ended up spending about $300 more on spacers and new handles from McMaster Carr. Also made the smallest insert ring from baltic birch. All this to say that you are still in a good spot with a good machine with out too much invested. I did buy mine in person ,so I did know what I was in for before I pulled the trigger. I checked out the spindle with a dial indicator and had it fired up ,mostly to see if it ran but also to listen to the wind down .

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, I used a Delta RS-15 for about 3 years in an employment. I like it. Had not before used one with changeable spindles before ,and did not
think the manual instructions were good on that one point.