Cosman dovetail saw vs Lie-Nelson

[Brian Biela]

I'm a fairly new wood worker and have been using a Japanese dovetail saw. I'm looking at leaning towards the LN, then I watched Rob Cosman's dovetail video and his discussion about his saw. Has anyone used both? Is it worth twice as much???? Thanks!

[Frederick Skelly]

I have the (standard) LN and it is a great tool. I have not tried the Cosman. The "22 tpi starting teeth" is intriguing, but I don't know that it's worth all that extra money. Let's see what people who have actually used it have to say. (Learning to start a 15 tpi saw is not difficult. Takes a little practice. LINK TO GOOD ARTICLE)

I will say, if you are going to pay $250-$300 for a dovetail saw, you have several additional options beyond just the Cosman. So do your homework before you decide. Examples: Bontz Saw Works, Badaxe, Grammercy and several others.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the LN version of the Cosman saw. LN called it "progressive teeth". In my opinion it's an interesting concept but I find I don't need it or use it. I think the idea is that you can start the cut using the fine teeth and then lengthen your stroke to cut faster. I just don't have any problem starting the cut with the coarser teeth.

If you do have a problem starting your cut you can use a chisel and cut a small "notch" where you want the cut to start.

I think the standard LN saw is great and recommend it. Don't spend the extra money.

Mike

[When I first started making dovetails, I used a dozuki. I didn't have any problems with it cutting straight but it was fairly slow - the one I was using had fairly fine teeth which made for a slow cut.]

[John Keeton]

Haven’t used the LN, but the Cosman saw is excellent. However, I haven’t done any dovetails in several years, but it does look nice in my cabinet!!

[Derek Cohen]

I have two saws with “progressive” teeth, one a crosscut saw for joinery, and the other aimed at dovetailing. This type of saw has a section of finer teeth at the toe, to aid in starting off a saw cut.

But this presumes that all saw cuts start at the toe, and this is not always the situation. I tend to start a dovetail a few inches back on the saw plate, where there are none of the finer teeth, and where there is less weigh on the workpiece. That is the very opposite style used by the Cosman saw, where RC aims to place high downforce. Hence the extra heavy brass back. I have not used one of his saws, and am not criticising the design, but rather stating that this is not going to suit me. I like lighter saws, or saws where it is easier to take the weight off the toe when starting a cut. The very opposite of the RC saw is the Gramercy. I would argue that the Gramercy is a dovetail saw for advanced sawyers, while the RC is for beginners. The RC saw probably does a good job here, but eventually one will learn what to do, and then you are left with a saw that fatigues owing to the high mass.

The Lie Nielsen dovetail saw I have is the standard 15 tpi. Keep in mind that mine has been sharpened several times over the dozen or more years I have used it, so hardly original. But I recall when new that the zero rake teeth were really hard to start. It took some time to get used to this (however, have increased the rake to about 4 or 5 degrees) , but now I love it since it offers a more aggressive, faster rip. This is also a saw more for the experienced user. It requires a light touch starting the saw cut .... which RC clearly recalls, as he used this saw for many years when he was the LN agent in Canada. His own dovetail saw was no doubt designed in reaction to the LN saw.

The absolute best dovetail saw, in my opinion, for someone starting out is the Veritas 14 ppi. The weight is lower (thanks to the resin composite back), while the handle is as comfortable to the LN. The important factor is the 14 degree teeth rake, which makes for a smooth cutting saw. It is not aggressive, like the LN, but still cuts fast enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ben Ellenberger]

I started in the last couple years. Like you, I first used a dozuki. I got the veritas 14 ppi dovetail saw and I really like it. There is a learning curve with learning how to start cuts, but I find it easier to cut straight compared to the dozuki.

[David Publicover]

I have a Cosman dovetail saw and like it a lot. It’s very well made, feels substantial and cuts straight. The handle fits my hand nicely and it looks very good. I don’t always start my cuts on the finer teeth and have no problems. I much prefer it to the Veritas dovetail saw I had but it was considerably more money. The RC saw simply worked better for me than the LV saw but I also preferred it for reasons beyond performance. Whether those factors make it “worth it” seems a very personal calculation to me. It’s worth noting that my dovetails still don’t look like Robs...
I do have a Veritas crosscut saw which I quite like so nothing here against LV products.
I was able to pick up a second hand LN tenon saw this week that was unused. It is a beautiful looking saw but I haven’t had a chance to really use it yet so have no opinions about it’s performance. I expect it to work very well though.

[Phil Gaudio]

I've used the Cosman, the LN regular plate, thin plate, and progressive pitch saws. My recommendation would be to go for the LN thin plate (.015) model. Cuts beautifully and easier to start compared to the regular plate. Added bonus: its one of the least expensive premium saws on the market, and LN will re-sharpen the saw for you for a very modest fee.

[Rick Erickson]

I've owned and used both. The LN was my first saw purchase. I love the company and all of their tools. I loved their Dovetail saw. I then made the 'mistake' of trying the Cosman saw. My LN immediately went up for sale. I now own 4 Cosman saws.

[Brian Biela]

Thanks for responding. What makes the Cosman saw better for you?

[Rick Erickson]

Thanks for responding. What makes the Cosman saw better for you?

Easier to start
Better cut
Weight/Balance
Grip fits my hand better - and is consistent with other saws I own of his - they all fit the same

If you don't have access to the Cosman saw to try - I think you would like the LN saw. I did. It sure costs a lot less :-). I was very successful at cutting dovetails with it. It's like a lot of other hand tools - You can be happy with a Stanley #4 until you try a LN.

[Frederick Skelly]

Easier to start
Better cut
Weight/Balance
Grip fits my hand better - and is consistent with other saws I own of his - they all fit the same

If you don't have access to the Cosman saw to try - I think you would like the LN saw. I did. It sure costs a lot less :-). I was very successful at cutting dovetails with it. It's like a lot of other hand tools - You can be happy with a Stanley #4 until you try a LN.

Rick,
Do you find yourself continuing to use the "22 tpi starting teeth", or have your sawing skills improved to the point you no longer need that feature? I ask, because I keep thinking there are other good saws in that price range in addition to the RC. Not trying to argue - I havent touched an RC saw - just trying to understand your usage.

Thanks.
Fred

[Mike Henderson]

The quality of produced dovetails has more to do with the skill of the woodworker than the saw. I produced good dovetails with a dozuki and only upgraded to a LN saw because the Dozuki had fine teeth and cut slowly.

I can cut dovetails faster with my LN saw but I don't think they're any better because of the saw.

Think about how many dovetails you're going to cut and how often, before you purchase a dovetail saw. More time spent working on your skills may provide a better return than buying a very expensive saw.

Mike

[Unless you're going to do a lot of dovetails, almost every day, you're probably at the inflection point where saws more expensive than the LN (or equivalent) just don't provide much gain.]

[Rick Erickson]

Rick,
Do you find yourself continuing to use the "22 tpi starting teeth", or have your sawing skills improved to the point you no longer need that feature? I ask, because I keep thinking there are other good saws in that price range in addition to the RC. Not trying to argue - I havent touched an RC saw - just trying to understand your usage.

Thanks.
Fred

Valid question - I would say it depends on the wood. I don't see the starting teeth as a 'newbie' feature. Paul Sellers says he even grinds the first few teeth on his saw. I would say my experience is a little different than Mikes. My dovetails got a good bit cleaner/more consistent with my RC saw and I enjoyed using the saw more. I don't consider myself a 'natural' when it comes to woodworking - I have to work at it. I do find that buying the best tools I can afford the more successful I am. Other's don't subscribe to that. They are likely more skilled than I am. Back to the Cosman saw and your points about other good saws. I agree - there are a lot of excellent saws out there - including the LN. I'm not trying to sell a Cosman saw - just expressing my personal experience :-). I really don't think you would go wrong with a LN saw at all. It's a great saw for a very decent price. Plus the fact that LN products have excellent resale value if you ever did change your mind.

And I've kept the vendor list to LN and RC because that was the title of your post :-). There are some other good ones out there. Bad Axe is still producing them - but you may have to get on the wait list. And of course, Veritas.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Rick!