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Thread: learning pace / approach, and "cheating"

  1. #31
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    So one option is to pick your battles. Finishing is a different trade than joinery; each requires its own 20,000 hours of study (or whatever) to become proficient at it. There's no shame, and many advantages to focus-- choose what you want to master and focus on it; let someone else who has already mastered the trade do the part you're less interested in. Hiring a capable pro to finish projects is a completely reasonable option that many expert woodworkers take.

  2. #32
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    My production of artisanal firewood continues 45 years strong

    I was lucky to have my FIL as an educational source, a person who was lucky enough to have completed an apprenticeship in England before the war.

    He was the last of that general type who was required to study drawing and sketching in the artistic venue as well as fabric making, painting, colouring and other arts as well as some architecture and of course furniture making.

    Mornings at school, afternoons at work, part of your wages garnisheed for tools.

    It gave him a different language and skills, he knew what the correct names were for every component of woodwork, whether for furniture or architecture.

    I still laugh at him teaching me how to make dovetails, I came with every marking tool and aid known to mankind and proceeded to demonstrate my prowess at measuring and marking.

    After a few moments he took the pencil from me, tossed it aside and said “nobody is paying for your drawing”. He picked up a chisel, rolled it across the board, counting the rolls. He scribed a faint line with a marking gauge, placed a few marks on the end of the board with the chisel.

    Putting the board in the vies he sawed the tails with a rip saw in three strokes, two forceful which took 90% of the cut and one more careful cut to finish, chisel out the waste in very few operations and trace the tails onto the other board with a knife.

    Same rapid work, then after a few minutes, a completed joint, I would have still been drawing lines. As I stood there, mouth agape he said “after your first thousand drawers you get better”.

    That’s what’s been helpful to me, people, including those here who share their skills, that and making a pile of artisanal firewood.

    Sadly, we lost him this year, his brass and wood folding rule he bought in the 1930’s sits in my shop drawer next to my digital calipers, I’m sure it would produce a wry smile on his face.

    To all of you who helped me, and countless others get a little more proficient, thanks for paying it forward.....Rod.
    Last edited by Rod Sheridan; 12-26-2020 at 9:43 AM.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    .......One of the concerns I have about all the modern day joinery methods - such as biscuits and dominos (and I own these tools myself) - is that they provide a shortcut to construction for those starting out. This obviates some of the most important teaching areas. One of the benefits of learning traditional joinery is that it is more likely that one also learns to pay attention to wood movement.

    I fear that the mechanical joiners of this world encourage the building of furniture that only has to last a few years. By contrast, I expect everything I build (with traditional joinery and attention to grain direction and expansion) to last a century. If anyone wants it, of course


    Derek

    ^^^^^^ This. ^^^^^^^^

    A well fitting M&T is the pinnacle of joinery, and immensely satisfying. To me, it separates my work from the stuff you can buy at IKEA.

  4. #34
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sheridan View Post
    My production of artisanal firewood continues 45 years strong

    I was lucky to have my FIL as an educational source, a person who was lucky enough to have completed an apprenticeship in England before the war.

    He was the last of that general type who was required to study drawing and sketching in the artistic venue as well as fabric making, painting, colouring and other arts as well as some architecture and of course furniture making.

    Mornings at school, afternoons at work, part of your wages garnisheed for tools.

    It gave him a different language and skills, he knew what the correct names were for every component of woodwork, whether for furniture or architecture.

    I still laugh at him teaching me how to make dovetails, I came with every marking tool and aid known to mankind and proceeded to demonstrate my prowess at measuring and marking.

    After a few moments he took the pencil from me, tossed it aside and said “nobody is paying for your drawing”. He picked up a chisel, rolled it across the board, counting the rolls. He scribed a faint line with a marking gauge, placed a few marks on the end of the board with the chisel.

    Putting the board in the vies he sawed the tails with a rip saw in three strokes, two forceful which took 90% of the cut and one more careful cut to finish, chisel out the waste in very few operations and trace the tails onto the other board with a knife.

    Same rapid work, then after a few minutes, a completed joint, I would have still been drawing lines. As I stood there, mouth agape he said “after your first thousand drawers you get better”.

    That’s what’s been helpful to me, people, including those here who share their skills, that and making a pile of artisanal firewood.

    Sadly, we lost him this year, his brass and wood folding rule he bought in the 1930’s sits in my shop drawer next to my digital calipers, I’m sure it would produce a wry smile on his face.

    To all of you who helped me, and countless others get a little more proficient, thanks for paying it forward.....Rod.

    Thank you for sharing that Rod. Really powerful, and a very fitting tribute.

    (PS - I too make firewood... I'm not sure it qualifies as artisanal yet though )
    - Bob R.
    Collegeville PA (30 minutes west of Philly)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Citerone View Post
    The best advice given about finishing I ever heard was simply this. Find a few finishes that you like and stick with them, perfect them. I happen to mostly use Waterlox and have developed a method that keeps evolving. To keep trying a new finish on each project is like sitting in a bar all day switching drinks IMO.

    Thanks Ron! A few others have mentioned the same to me, and I think this is how I will start. My current approach typically ends with a pretty nicely built piece of furniture topped with a subpar finish. If I can have finishing end as nicely as the build, that'll be motivating.
    - Bob R.
    Collegeville PA (30 minutes west of Philly)

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Starting out in woodworking is similar to moving to a new city: in the beginning one is anxious about finding the way around, and we memorise and stick to one route between home and the work place. As we begin to “see” a progressively bigger picture, understanding how the parts go together, we become more comfortable branching out this way or that. We know enough to understand the potential consequences of a shortcut or chosen joinery.

    In short, when starting out, we struggle to see the Big Picture. Starting point >>>> end point .... and little in between. I know what I want to make, but how do I get there?

    I wrote about this on another forum recently, and to a member of this forum .... an area which beginners do not consider is wood movement. This is as much an important feature of design and construction as the work itself. One of the concerns I have about all the modern day joinery methods - such as biscuits and dominos (and I own these tools myself) - is that they provide a shortcut to construction for those starting out. This obviates some of the most important teaching areas. One of the benefits of learning traditional joinery is that it is more likely that one also learns to pay attention to wood movement.

    I fear that the mechanical joiners of this world encourage the building of furniture that only has to last a few years. By contrast, I expect everything I build (with traditional joinery and attention to grain direction and expansion) to last a century. If anyone wants it, of course

    When starting out, take the time to read up on traditional joinery. Watch videos of those using it. Link this with design and construction methods for solid wood (as opposed to panels of MDF and ply) since construction demands are different. Try your hand at traditional joints, such as mortice-and-tenon and dovetailing. Make them with machines and by hand. Learn to fit out frame-and-panel doors with solid wood. Ditto drawers and drawer bottoms.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

    Great analogy Derek! It definitely applies to me. I think I have figured out how to get to work, grocery store, and back home again. But the route could be more scenic or efficient or varied etc.

    And, you're touching upon my Domino question... The reason I ask if it's "cheating" is that I wonder if there are instances where that tool would enable me to build certain assemblies that I couldn't otherwise produce another way (yet). And, perhaps that shortcut would reduce understanding.

    As contrast... many of the techniques that I have practiced so far began with hand cutting, and then using the whatever-I-have-on-hand power tool options (cobble together a solution). With that done, I have often then upgraded a tool and/or built the exact jig that I want (i.e. After the first two steps, I knew what I wanted, what good looks like, and devised a way that I like to do it efficiently). Kind of like learning long division before using a calculator.
    - Bob R.
    Collegeville PA (30 minutes west of Philly)

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Again, simple can work, but take the time to expand understanding.

    Finishes serve different purposes. Oil- versus water-based poly, various oil finishes, shellac and shellac-composites, lacquer .... and then a whole host of application methods.

    We start out with something tried-and-true, easy to apply - even stick with them forever if they do a specific task well (a specific wood for a specific environment). But there is much to be gained in understanding a wider range. My present piece (a chest) involves staining and grain-filling, then protecting the outside of a case .... which is different from finishing the inside of drawers.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek


    A few posts ago, I mentioned to Ron that finding a method or two that fits my current builds would be a great way to have some confidence that my finishing results are at least up to a similar standard as my build results. And I think that's right since I'm driven/motivated to produce useful pieces while I learn (especially since woodworking seems to be a lifelong learning activity).

    But... I do want the lifelong learning.

    And... there's only so much time to dedicate to woodworking/finishing/learning (and my wife/kids would probably say that it's less time than I already give it)..

    So... while using "tried and true" for my usual projects seems sensible... how do I recognize instances where a project would be a good candidate for learning a new finish?
    - Bob R.
    Collegeville PA (30 minutes west of Philly)

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sheridan View Post
    My production of artisanal firewood continues 45 years strong.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  9. #39
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    I might add, Bob, that the initial two choices I made on finishing included one that was very durable, and one that’s less durable. Anything that won’t have the potential for liquid exposure or a lot of handling usually gets some sort of Watco or Shellac, or both. Things that need to be durable, got the GF ArmRSeal. And in some cases, the top got ArmRSeal and the rest got shellac.

    And both of these can be done to get the look you’re after; natural wood, satin, even high gloss.

    Also depends on the wood. For example, walnut, that tends to lighten over time, I would use Watco Medium or Dark Walnut first to retain the dark color over time. I also played with various shellacs (clear, amber, garnet, etc). I have a number of pieces that have Watco first, then shellac or ArmRSeal.

    Then I played with ways to tone the finish. Gel stain over shellac, etc. Once I got confident with a couple of finishes, I tried different variations. Many see a greater depth of finish when multiple layers are applied.

    And I’ve spent a considerable amount of time working on fixing problems. I’ve concentrated on clear shellac burn in sticks, and coloring with powder dyes with shellac as the medium.

    I guess the bottom line is that it can end with a few finishes, or infinite products and variations. I started with just getting a decent finish that had the appropriate level of durability. Then moved to working on different depth and tones.
    Last edited by Phil Mueller; 12-27-2020 at 10:12 AM.

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