How Many use Hot Hide As Primary Glue?

[ken hatch]

I use hot or liquid hide glue for most projects not because of nostalgia or romance but because hide glue is a better glue than a PVA glue for many woodworking projects. It brings things to the table other than rub joints and reversibility, it fact reversibility is way down my list. I can't remember the last time I took a joint apart to re-join but have used hide often to size end grain when needed. It sure is easy to clean up squeeze out and the list goes on. BTW, when one of the Titebonds is a better glue it's used, pretty simple.

ken

[Andrew Seemann]

Most luthiers and violin makers believe the rigidity of a hide glue joint is essential to the sound of their instruments, and that flexible glues like PVA have a deleterious dampening effect. I've never heard of anyone doing a side-by-side blind listening test on instruments identical but for the glue.

Almost certainly the original makers would have used PVA etc had it been available; they had no intention that their instruments should be rebuilt every 40-50 years. Those of us who work on them now are really happy they didn't have "better" choices.

And yet every modern builder says that the instruments that they built with PVA before they knew better still sounded fine and didn't collapse because of creep, while still saying any instrument built with PVA is junk (at least by anyone else)

I absolutely agree that the makers of yore would have used PVA. They built instruments for a living, anything that saved an hour or a shilling would certainly have been used. People tend romanticize historical builders as these towering figures in possession of ancient mystical knowledge that only used the finest materials, wood from the tallest tree on the northmost slope cut at the full moon, etc. Fact is they didn't go out of their way to find materials or look for ways to make something take longer; it would have been too expensive.

[Mel Fulks]

I disagree. The great old instrument makers used a thinned weaker glue on the tops so that they could be removed for changes to the tops( they liked to make stuff that sounded good besides looking right) ,repairs, changes to bass bar. I doubt there are any of the finest
bowed instruments that have never had top removed. Records were kept and many are still around, so this is not a guess.

[Mel Fulks]

Heat and water to remove a top ? Certainly not on the best ones. But I guess it might be neccesary on stuff made by
modern enthusiasts. Or in prison shops.

[Mel Fulks]

Highest price paid for a violin is $16,000,000. And it was a used one !!

[Mike Henderson]

Heat and water to remove a top ? Certainly not on the best ones. But I guess it might be neccesary on stuff made by
modern enthusiasts. Or in prison shops.

According to my luthier friend, the way they remove a top or bottom on a violin is they look for an opening between the side and the top. Then they work a palette knife into the crack and then carefully pry the joint apart. Apparently the glue is weak in tension.

But you're absolutely correct, Mel. Any older stringed instrument almost certainly had it's top removed at one time in it's life.

Mike

[The reason I asked him about that is because I couldn't see any way they could use heat to disassemble the joint. I also asked him about fish glue and he said that if they used fish glue they'd never be able to remove the top or bottom. And Chris (below), you're right. There's no maker or luthier who would ever put PVA glue on an instrument.]

[chris carter]

There is absolutely no way a legit violin, viola, cello, or bass would ever have been made with PVA. No way. It would be a disposable instrument with a short life. These instruments get opened up MANY MANY times over their lives. Had TB III been available long ago to the greats they would not have used it. The first time someone took their PVA violin in for work and word got out about the damage taken trying to open the thing up, that maker's career would have been instantly over.

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, thanks. And perhaps we have saved at least one instrument.
And to everyone else...always remember being allowed on you tube ain't really the best great credentials!

[Mel Fulks]

The bows are also interesting. A friend of many years is an accomplished pro violinist. He had a pro friend of greater fame who was a
mentor. When the mentor died he left him a fine bow. My friend says it has improved his playing. I asked him how could a bow make a big
difference . Seems there is not much info. But all pros swear the bows make a big difference. And of course the
horse hair is the "speaker" while the bow is the "cabinet". Makes no sense!

[Mike Henderson]

My wife is a professional cellist. She says that a bow makes a difference but I can't give you all the reasons. Good bows are very expensive. The best are made from pernambuco, a wood from Brazil that is very tightly controlled these days. Bows are fragile and if one breaks it can be repaired but it greatly affects the value (downward).

Some of the old bows have parts that include ivory. If you go out of country with one of those bows you can have problems returning.

Some good bows, today, are made from carbon fiber. They're not nearly as expensive as a pernambuco bow.

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

Mike, thanks for posting that. I'm guessing that the new carbon fiber bows are made curved and stay curved. The pernambuco bows are made straight ,then bent with a heat source. Maybe the new ones will have an ad like this:
Pernambuco can move to and fro....But our carbon fibers won't let go....and it's more Per-Muh-Nunt, Bucko !
(all rights reserved, MEF 2020)

[Phil Mueller]

Ken, I use liquid hide glue when I want a little extra time and it also helps slip in some tighter joints. Never had a joint fail. I do like it for certain applications.

My apologies for making a comment that sent it on a different direction. I feel like I just took the dog out at night and stepped in it. Certainly wasn’t meant to do that.

[ken hatch]

Ken, I use liquid hide glue when I want a little extra time and it also helps slip in some tighter joints. Never had a joint fail. I do like it for certain applications.

My apologies for making a comment that sent it on a different direction. I feel like I just took the dog out at night and stepped in it. Certainly wasn’t meant to do that.

Phil,

No problem. It led to posts about the use of different glues. It is all good, we need to understand the differences and when to use what glue.

A perfect example, tonight I needed to glue up three parts to make a table for a shavehorse. Because I didn't have glue in the glue pot and I wanted to get the part made I used Titebond II. To fix the creep I had to put cut off nails to hold the pieces in place where if using hot hide I could have just rubbed the pieces together and walked away once they set. In the end either works, just hot hide is easier.

ken