Glue for rub joints?

[Laurent Marshall]

I'm getting started on the chest of drawers from "The Joiner and Cabinet Maker", right now I'm still working on stock prep before gluing up my panels for the case. I've always found clamping and glue ups to be the thing I enjoy least in woodworking, so learning about rub joints as a way to do long edge joints without clamps has been intriguing. If I can make the process more enjoyable, why not? I'm doing this as a hobby after all.

I've done a shorter practice rub joint with Titebond III on some white pine that I think came out pretty good (the glue line came out thicker than with clamped joints, but it's still acceptably thin), and I'm pretty sure with a bit more practice I could make an even better joint.

What glues are really best for rub joints? I know these were traditionally done with hot hide glue (I've got a small package to try out on the way in the mail), and most of the sources I've seen say you can do rub joints with PVA glues, but it's really recommend to clamp joints with PVA glues... On the other hand, watching WoodbyWright's glue testing videos on youtube, it seems like hide glue is definitely weaker, and has poorer gap filling performance than a good quality PVA glue like Titebond III. Maybe that doesn't matter anyway since hot hide glue was used for rub joints for centuries.

I'm interested to hear what you folks on the creek have to say!

[Jim Matthews]

Titebond II has a shorter open time and dries (essentially) clear. Titebond 3 has a longer "open" time and dries a brown hue - it emulates hide glue.

Rub joints are traditionally made with hide glue, which begins to shrink as it cools, and draws joints tight.

It is prone to failure in damp environments, like most basement shops.

[Rafael Herrera]

You may want to try pinch dogs as clamp substitutes.

For example,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JJZACQE..._TFJYFb4P07BRB

[Laurent Marshall]

You may want to try pinch dogs as clamp substitutes.

For example,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JJZACQE..._TFJYFb4P07BRB

Those those might be worth a try - I guess they're mostly good to reduce the chance of the boards shifting before the glue has set. I'm not sure they'd provide much clamping pressure, and theoretically with a perfect rub joint with hot hide glue you shouldn't need any...

Although I don't enjoy using clamps, going clamp-less does make me a bit nervous!

[Prashun Patel]

Rub joints may not be appropriate on all joints.

I would simultaneously investigate cauls. They reduce stress during glue up too.

[chris carter]

I would not use a rub joint on anything that will be structural or under stress. I would not use it to glue up large panels. I find hot hide glue is the absolute best for rub joints because it’s so fast and doesn’t leave a very visible line. Elmer’s glue-all is also a good one – although considerably slower to set up, it leaves an almost invisible line. By way of contrast, something like TB III leaves a hideous dark brown line so depending on the color of your wood you might not be very happy.

Gap filling is meaningless with a rub joint because in theory there should be zero gaps on a rub joint. If you’ve got any gaps, don’t do a rub joint.

One thing to consider is that if what you hate about clamping is the clamping time, hot hide glue joints that aren't under stress DURING the glue up don't need to be clamped for long at all.

[Laurent Marshall]

I would not use a rub joint on anything that will be structural or under stress. I would not use it to glue up large panels. I find hot hide glue is the absolute best for rub joints because it’s so fast and doesn’t leave a very visible line. Elmer’s glue-all is also a good one – although considerably slower to set up, it leaves an almost invisible line. By way of contrast, something like TB III leaves a hideous dark brown line so depending on the color of your wood you might not be very happy.

Gap filling is meaningless with a rub joint because in theory there should be zero gaps on a rub joint. If you’ve got any gaps, don’t do a rub joint.

One thing to consider is that if what you hate about clamping is the clamping time, hot hide glue joints that aren't under stress DURING the glue up don't need to be clamped for long at all.

Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.

[Prashun Patel]

Because going clampless is not something most people do. There’s a reason. Cauls spread the pressure over longer distances. I’ve done them up to 4 feet. Imho you’ll reduce your long term stress and be a better woodworker if you both learn to joint as if you’re doing a run joint but also learn to use clamps more efficiently and to utilize dominos or dowels for alignment. Draw boring is anothe fantastic technique worthy of study.

Stress is reduced by having options not by religiously sticking to one method.

[Tom Bain]

For me the stress of glue ups comes from the "being on the clock" with the limited set time of the glue, especially for complex glue-ups. That's why I really prefer working with longer open time glues like Titebond Extend or Plastic Resin glue. Something to check out if you haven't already.

[Mel Fulks]

Sometimes more open time lets people slide the pieces around too long.
Pinch dogs are good but I was surprised at how expensive they are, I made a bunch by buying mild steel flat stock ,
using a skinny cutting wheel to make the V cut first ,then make the cut-off. And finally tapering the sides a little with
standard wider grinding wheel.

[chris carter]

Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.

I totally understand wanting to have fun over the "best way" to do something as I totally fall into that boat! One thing you can try is a sprung joint. If you leave a gap in the middle you only need to clamp the middle. Or leave the hump in the middle and just one clamp on each end. It would at least cut down on the number of clamps.

Another recommendation I could make is the choice of clamps. I used to get really frustrated because I relied on F clamps a lot. Then one day it hit me that so many old-school woodworking gurus I watched on youtube would use pipe clamps for everything and only resort to other styles when a pipe clamp couldn't work. So I bought more pipe clamps! I used to hate glue ups, but now they aren't so bad. Some people really swear by those aluminum bar clamps. I'm just saying, the style of clamp, or brand of clamp, might be a contributing factor and different people like different things.

THAT SAID, I must say that although I don't do rub joints very often, when I DO use one there is a certain satisfaction to it!

P.S. and in agreement with a previous post - if you really want to go hog wild with rub joints, just go hot hide glue and don't look back because everything else will be various levels of compromise.

[Robert Engel]

Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.

if you want to do ww’ing without clamps, you’re in for a challenge.

[Derek Cohen]

Originally Posted by Laurent Marshall
Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.

if you want to do ww’ing without clamps, you’re in for a challenge.

Well, now .... mortice-and-tenon joints go together with drawboring ...



Drawers go together with dovetails ...



... and panels can be pulled tight with a rubbed joint and/or stretched blue tape ...




Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mel Fulks]

Derek, tomorrow there will be a lot of guys trying to buy " dovetail decals ,like I saw online "

[ken hatch]

Originally Posted by Laurent Marshall
Mostly what I don't like about clamping is the set up and then fiddling with and setting all the clamps well. It's just a lot of pieces to handle, and even with cauls you still often need a ton of clamps as the cauls will only spread the clamping pressure an extra few inches sometimes. Not dealing with clamps for a glue up would just be kind of nice. If a part of the process is not enjoyable, and there's another way to get a good result, why bother with the less enjoyable method? I certainly want my projects to last, but on the other hand I'm not doing this for paying customers.






Well, now .... mortice-and-tenon joints go together with drawboring ...



Drawers go together with dovetails ...



... and panels can be pulled tight with a rubbed joint and/or stretched blue tape ...




Regards from Perth

Derek

LMAO, thanks Derek.

ken