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Thread: G1029 dc as a cyclone

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    G1029 dc as a cyclone

    I have a griz 2 hp 1029 dust collector. It’s about 14 years old. Can I take the horizontal shaft motor and blower assembly and rotate the motor vertical to connect the blower inlet to the top of a dust deputy cyclone. Will the blower bearings work in this position. Adds axial load. Is it worth doing will the cyclone be an improvement or is it better to buy a cyclone like the 2hp jet
    Working with a 20” planer, 8” jointer, hammer k3 winner, 17” band saw and edge sander. thanks in advance
    gary

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    Rotating the motor should not be a problem. The cyclone will put quite a hit on your airflow. The purpose of the cyclone is to keep the bulk of the spoil out of your filter. That is to say, the performance you have now with a clean filter will be much better than your performance on the same system with a cyclone in the path. If your filter clogs quickly, your performance will be better due to the filter staying clean longer.
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


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    I did exactly as you propose with my 2 HP Grizzly DC fan. I mounted it directly on top of my cyclone and it's been running w/o problems for at least 3 years with many, many hours of use. Glenn is right that a cyclone adds a substantial amount of static pressure loss. However, mounting the fan directly on top eliminates the duct or hose losses with a decoupled fan. If you match the inlet to your fan to the same diameter as the outlet of the cyclone you will minimize the pressure drop between them. With new filters you may end up with no higher pressure drop after adding the cyclone than you had before with partially loaded ones. I maximized the performance of my system by eliminating the filters entirely and sent the exhaust straight out a window. I upsized the outlet diameter from the fan, too.

    As you make changes use an ammeter to check the motor current so as not to overload it.

    John

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    While there are drawbacks, and you should research them carefully before choosing to go this route, you can mount the cyclone after the Dust Collector. There are plenty of Single Stage DC's in use without catastrophe. This arrangement allows for separation without taking a hit on the static pressure on you system. I have this layout in my shop and moving the cyclone to "behind" the DC make a meaningful increase in collection at the machines.

  5. #5
    To each their own, but I prefer to separate any chunks that pass through the system before they reach the impeller. My 3HP blower assembly was marketed to be used with the motor shaft horizontal, but I mounted it vertically directly to the top of the cyclone. After three years of hobbyist use, I have not had any issues with it.

    Disregard the horrible double 90-degree bends in the ducting. This will be corrected in the upcoming upgrade.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa Starr View Post
    While there are drawbacks, and you should research them carefully before choosing to go this route, you can mount the cyclone after the Dust Collector. There are plenty of Single Stage DC's in use without catastrophe. This arrangement allows for separation without taking a hit on the static pressure on you system. I have this layout in my shop and moving the cyclone to "behind" the DC make a meaningful increase in collection at the machines.

    The cyclone has the same pressure drop regardless of where it's mounted.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Markham View Post
    ... will the cyclone be an improvement ...
    If you mean an improvement in air flow performance then, like Glenn said, if all you do is add the cyclone in front of the blower then performance will be degraded.

    The thing is, though that you really don't need two centrifugal separators in your system. The separator that holds the bag and filter is not only a mediocre separator, it also has a high pressure loss. Eliminating that will more than make up for the loss added by a SDD.

    So these have worse airflow performance with the added cyclone:

    SDD with Ring.jpg

    While these have improved performance compared to stock:

    SDD no Ring.jpg
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

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    I have my blower directly above a Dust Deputy XL . 8" flex down to the waste bin , and 8" flex over to the filter that's 292 sq. ft. Also added a wooden ring as shown in Mike Kreinhop's picture between the blower housing and the 6" inlet plate . My last modification was to enlarge the exhaust opening from 5' x 6" to 5" x 7" and remove the ribs designed to catch wood chunks on the intake opening . tried to get as much air thru it as possible . I have no data to see if this helped , but I thought why not . My blower is a old grizzly 2 HP .

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    Quote Originally Posted by james manutes View Post
    I have my blower directly above a Dust Deputy XL . 8" flex down to the waste bin , and 8" flex over to the filter that's 292 sq. ft. Also added a wooden ring as shown in Mike Kreinhop's picture between the blower housing and the 6" inlet plate . My last modification was to enlarge the exhaust opening from 5' x 6" to 5" x 7" and remove the ribs designed to catch wood chunks on the intake opening . tried to get as much air thru it as possible . I have no data to see if this helped , but I thought why not . My blower is a old grizzly 2 HP .
    That sounds like a really good mod. You've really reduced the losses to a minimum. Can you post a pic? I'd like to add it to my collection
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    The cyclone has the same pressure drop regardless of where it's mounted.

    John
    This is probably true, but, depending on the impeller, a blower may perform better with additional back-pressure than it would with same amount of additional intake vacuum.

    Additional back pressure would increase the density of the air in the impeller, whereas additional intake vacuum reduces the air density in the impeller.

    Whether that's enough to make a difference in the real world is yet another question...

    But you wouldn't have to deal with keeping a plastic liner "inflated" in the cyclone collection bin either.

    If you intend to use the DC for floor sweep duties, I would not put the blower before the cyclone separator, to keep metal objects, heated by striking the impeller, out of the combustible dust bin. Worse, if the impeller is a ferrous metal, metal debris can spark on the impeller.

    -- Andy - Arlington TX

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy D Jones View Post
    This is probably true, but, depending on the impeller, a blower may perform better with additional back-pressure than it would with same amount of additional intake vacuum.

    Additional back pressure would increase the density of the air in the impeller, whereas additional intake vacuum reduces the air density in the impeller.

    Whether that's enough to make a difference in the real world is yet another question...
    Well, let's not leave a question unanswered!

    So let's assume a SDD, a '2HP' DC (12" fan), and 600 CFM. Depending on whose data you use the loss of the SDD at 600 CFM is between 1.5" and 2.3", so let's just call it 2". Now, absolute pressure is about 400" so the change in density will be 2/400 = 0.5%. Fan pressure is proportional to density so about a 0.5% increase in fan pressure for moving the SDD from the inlet to the outlet. A 12" fan generates about 10" pressure rise so maybe an additional .05". Flow varies with the square root of pressure so an increase from 600 CFM to 601.5 CFM.

    The difference is calculable. It might be measurable if you have really good equipment and measurement skills. I wouldn't say it makes a real world difference.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David L Morse View Post
    That sounds like a really good mod. You've really reduced the losses to a minimum. Can you post a pic? I'd like to add it to my collection
    Sorry to say I'd have to take it down , and I can't get a good shot of it now . I was happy to get your comment however , you offer great feedback always . All I did was cut off most of the flat side of the DC exhaust ( 10" or so ) . Fabricated 1" wide pieces the to fill in the void , and gently rolled a piece to mate w/ the curved side of the housing . I had my friend do the welding , which was tricky given the thin metal . Shop built adapter for the 5" x 7" -to- 8" round flex down to the filter . I didn't know if it would actually help , and your kind words are appreciated .

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    Thanks, David!

    Actually, since we are comparing the cyclone in front of the blower with the cyclone behind the blower, wouldn't the cyclone's pressure contribution change from -2" to +2"difference be doubled to 4", or about 1% of atmosphere?

    Still works out to only 3 CFM difference, or 603 CFM total, and still pretty much meaningless in practical terms.

    -- Andy - Arlington TX
    Last edited by Andy D Jones; 12-02-2020 at 2:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy D Jones View Post
    Thanks, David!

    Actually, since we are comparing the cyclone in front of the blower with the cyclone behind the blower, wouldn't the cyclone's pressure contribution change from -2" to +2"difference be doubled to 4", or about 1% of atmosphere?
    Nope. It might help if you look at it as moving the blower instead of the cyclone. Or, consider the pair. The inlet and outlet pressures of the pair do not change. When you swap the order the inlet of the fan has the same pressure as the cyclone inlet had before the swap. So the fan's inlet changes by the pressure loss of the cyclone. It's a loop. The average pressure around the loop is absolute atmospheric pressure, i.e., the pressure differences add to zero.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

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    Okay, I see now...

    Thanks,

    -- Andy - Arlington TX

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