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Thread: 1.5HP dust collection. 1 stage or 2 stage?

  1. #1

    1.5HP dust collection. 1 stage or 2 stage?

    Have a question for the dust collection experts. I'm stuck on a 1-1.5HP DC system, as I have max a 20amp 110v breaker available. My current shop is a 1930 garage, with 2, 20amp lines run into it from the main panel at the house. There is no option to run 220v as the main panel is out of space. We're also going to be at the current location for max 2-3 years, so I do not want to make a large investment into electrical.

    I will be using this DC for me DW735 planer (4" port) , an 8" jointer (4" port), 14" bandsaw (1.5" port at blade, 2.5" port under) and a SawStop JSS with a 2.5" port on bottom and a 1.5" port on top. The plan is a 20 foot Rockler flex hose which will be moved tool to tool. Everything is on one side of a 2 car garage, so that setup will work great for me. I use a separate shop vac style dust extractor for my track saw and sanding needs.

    After doing some research, I have narrowed it down to these options:

    2 stage - Grizzly G0860. It's a "1.5hp" motor with a 12" impeller, so same really as the Harbor Freight motor (but already upgraded), but has a nice cyclone, canister, and pleated filter built in. These are currently on sale for $750 delivered, which seems like a great deal (https://www.grizzly.com/products/gri...ollector/g0860) I priced out and looked at doing a HF DC 2 stage retrofit with a dust deputy, but it will not be as "neat" as this, take up just as much space, and actually even cost more

    1 stage - Harbor Freight motor, wall mounted along with a canister filter (https://www.rockler.com/canister-fil...dust-collector). This setup will cost $450

    I have read that if you have such a low HP dust extractor that actually using a 1 stage setup can create more CFM at your tool and actually be more effective, at the cost of potentially clogging up the filter. Is this true? The 1 stage is obviously smaller (big bonus in my small shop), cheaper, and the only negative seems to be that it has a 14 gallon bag vs the 20 gallon setup of the Grizzly. Will the filter get super clogged up super fast? Will it actually offer MORE dust collection at the tool for me?

    HALP!

  2. #2
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    Looking at your tool list, the two big producers for stuff are a jointer and planer. The 735 has a fan and you could just use 4" hose to a trash can and call that one good. The jointer will also produce a lot of shavings, but will be handled with a regular collector. The big question would be... do you want to spend minimal money for dust collection or get something you can grow into without having to replace down the road. The harbor frieght collector will serve your current needs, but do you want to put double it's costs into "hot-rodding" it with mods. I ended up with a Jet 2Hp with the pleated filter, it was on sale through woodcraft for 650 although mine is 220v, they make the same thing in 1.5HP and 110V.

  3. #3
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    I have a Jet DC1100 that I converted to to two stage. It runs off 110v and is triggered to power on and off with iVac sensors on both 110v and 220v lines.

    I use it with a 12" A3-31 JP, a 3HP SawStop, a Laguna 14/12 bandsaw, a Hammer F3 Shaper, a ShopFox W1812 Moulder, a SuperMax 19/38 Drum sander, plus router tables and other small tools.

    My garage is 900sqft with 10' high ceilings. I have one main run of 5" metal pipe, about 40', with three drops that have a Wye with 4" and 2.5" blast gates.

    I've had this setup for about 6 years and haven't found it lacking in any dust, shaving or debris areas.

    I use a HD contractor trash bag inside the 1st stage to catch 99.5% of all the waste.

    When it was a single stage, I frequently had to clean out the filter, even though the Jet unit has a vortex cone which is supposed to limit how much stuff makes it up to the filter. Cleaning it out was a super messy job.






  4. #4
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    That filter from Rockler is smaller in diameter than the Harbor Frieght machine , not ideal . The filters from Wynn are what most folks use . I really don't think either machine is a great long term solution in the "next" shop . The budget can make the choices for us sometime , but I'd try to look at the long term goal if possible . You can look into Thien baffles , HF- to - shop built cyclones to get thru for the next couple years . I don't believe the Grizzly 860 is a great choice . You likely will have to move it tool- to - tool , and that can get old fast . Keep doing research to stretch your budget .

  5. #5
    I just found the fan curves on the Grizzly and holey moley it's a POS, so that's off the list. https://bit.ly/3nSv4Rv

    So long term goal is a bigger shop with 220, so that will be a whole new DC system as that point, I can get a proper 3hp unit. So this is definitely a "hold me over for 3 years" sort of thing, which is why I want to keep the budget $600ish. Thanks for the comments on the Wynn filter. That makes sense.

    I have a Jet DC1100 that I converted to to two stage. It runs off 110v and is triggered to power on and off with iVac sensors on both 110v and 220v lines.

    I've had this setup for about 6 years and haven't found it lacking in any dust, shaving or debris areas.

    When it was a single stage, I frequently had to clean out the filter


    Oh man, that's good feedback. That's the kind of stuff I was hoping for. Cause this would mean even if it IS more CFM single stage, I shouldn't bother, cause the filter is a PITA

  6. #6
    I have the 1.5 hp Grizzly POS cyclone on the Dewalt 735, 8" Jointer, SS PCS, 14" Laguna BS, etc and drag a 4" flex hose from tool to tool. I absolutely made a mistake in the buy as I need more HP if I was going to permanently locate it, which I would like to do, but for the way I run it, it has been very good.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hoppe View Post
    Have a question for the dust collection experts. I'm stuck on a 1-1.5HP DC system, as I have max a 20amp 110v breaker available. My current shop is a 1930 garage, with 2, 20amp lines run into it from the main panel at the house. There is no option to run 220v as the main panel is out of space. We're also going to be at the current location for max 2-3 years, so I do not want to make a large investment into electrical.


    HALP!
    Can you swap out the two single pole (110 Volt) breakers for a two pole (220 volt) breaker, and set a sub panel in the garage? Or put a couple of Siamese breakers in to free up some space in the breaker box?

  8. #8
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    A 20 foot hose is a bit much for that dust collector.

  9. #9
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    I agree with Larry. Do the roll around thing with a shorter hose for best results. It's worth the hassle.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  10. #10
    So the consensus seems to be:

    Go ahead and do the 2 stage cyclone, even if it's a 1.5hp machine, but do a 10ft hose instead and move it between machines.

    That would totally work, as I currently have all my tools on wheels anyways. The planer, jointer, spindle sander, and mini router table (forgot to mention those) are all on 2 flip top tables with wheels, the bandsaw has wheels, and my JSS is attached to my workbench, but it's within 10ft of where the dust collection will live.

  11. #11
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    That sounds like a good option that will "check the boxes" for your particular shop situation.

    FYI, the reason for the short hose recommendation is that will reduce the resistance between the tool and the collector which is a benefit. Dust collectors work by moving a volume of air at a particular velocity, not high negative static pressure like a shop vac does. Anything you can do to make that air flow more efficient is a plus so the short hose balances the convenience of a flexible, movable connection and reducing frictional loss as best as possible. Try for a "smooth interior", anti-static, hose, too. That's a few more shekels to acquire, but again, you'll benefit from it. You'l also want to use a quick disconnect setup for moving between tools...many folks fine that common rubber Fernco adapters from the plumbing supply section are very helpful with that as you can find one that will slip over the tool ports on one side and provide for spilling the hose over the other side with a clamp to secure. I use that method for adapting my drops to my Euro machines that have 120mm ports, but the same solution, appropriately sized, will work for common 4" connections, too.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
    Thanks for the realistic comments vs the "anything less than 5hp, you might as well do nothing"

    I have learned the basics, so I probably know enough to be dangerous, but the pressure vs air is why I use my shop vac + duststopper for my drill press, sanders and track saw, and it does amazing there. It's not enough for my table saw though, and the jointer and band saw just both laugh at it. As someone else said, the planer takes care of itself, but it'll be nice to have that attached to a collection container vs a giant bag, like I do now.

    The Oneida Supercell seems to be a machine that defies convention in that it does volume AND pressure, but it has a limitation of 220v. If that sucker was able to run on 110v, I'd have dropped the $$ on it, as it does seem to do it all, 4" ports AND 1.5" ports for sanders/etc.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hoppe View Post
    I just found the fan curves on the Grizzly and holey moley it's a POS, so that's off the list...
    Actually, that whole series (0860, 0861, 0862) has some very peculiar looking curves. I think someone made a mistake in calculating CFM when those were tested.

    For one thing, fan curves just don't have that kind of shape. Bernoulli tells us that pressure exchanges for the kinetic energy of flow and that kinetic energy varies with the square of flow. You just can't get that shape.

    Another thing that doesn't add up is the static pressure values when compared to the expect values from the orifice sizes. Orifices are often used for flow measurement and their characteristics are well studied. The static pressure is measured a short distance down the pipe and so should represent the pressure drop of the orifice at all but the highest flow rates. At those rates there's a little bit of pressure drop in the pipe which can also be estimated.

    I've calculated the flow values that would be expected based upon the orifice sizes and pipe length for the static pressure values tabulated. They make a much more believable fan curve. Here's a plot comparing those to Grizzly's as well as some other 1.5 HP dust collectors:



    With the exception of the Harbor Freight unit those all have 12" or so fans and 6" inlets, which means they should have similar performance.

    Now, I haven't personally measured any of those except the HFDC but if I were comparing them with the intent to buy I would trust my curve over Grizzly's for the G0860.
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    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wrenn View Post
    Can you swap out the two single pole (110 Volt) breakers for a two pole (220 volt) breaker, and set a sub panel in the garage? Or put a couple of Siamese breakers in to free up some space in the breaker box?
    I missed this comment earlier, so can you elaborate on this? I'm no electrician, but I'm not sure how I could operate 220 AND 110 at the same time in the garage. As in, if I ran 220 and setup a sub panel, but I operated a 20 amp 220v device, I couldn't ALSO run a 15 amp 110v device at the same time, right?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by David L Morse View Post
    Actually, that whole series (0860, 0861, 0862) has some very peculiar looking curves. I think someone made a mistake in calculating CFM when those were tested.
    So these calculations are appreciated, but there is another thread where someone contacted Grizzly's technical support about the weird curves, and they verified that in fact, they were correct. Here is that thread: https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/302383

    The reason they had these weird curves is that it's with the included cyclone, and the inefficient design of the cyclone, to allow for such a short overall unit height, is what is creating the weird numbers.

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