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Thread: 1.5HP dust collection. 1 stage or 2 stage?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Tippecanoe County, IN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hoppe View Post
    So these calculations are appreciated, but there is another thread where someone contacted Grizzly's technical support about the weird curves, and they verified that in fact, they were correct. Here is that thread: https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/302383

    The reason they had these weird curves is that it's with the included cyclone, and the inefficient design of the cyclone, to allow for such a short overall unit height, is what is creating the weird numbers.
    I'm familiar with that thread. I participated as user "Clagwell". A cyclone can't cause that weird behavior. It has the same square law characteristic as everything else does at those flow rates. The short overall height and large diameter actually reduce the pressure drop compared to a long cone style.

    Check the Laguna short cone curves. Except for a lower stall pressure they're very similar to other cyclones as well as non-cyclone systems.

    Again, the static pressure versus orifice size has absolutely nothing to do with the cyclone shape. All of that happens outside of the cyclone.

    No, Grizzly just got it wrong.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Try for a "smooth interior", anti-static, hose, too. That's a few more shekels to acquire, but again, you'll benefit from it. You'l also want to use a quick disconnect setup for moving between tools...many folks fine that common rubber Fernco adapters from the plumbing supply section are very helpful with that as you can find one that will slip over the tool ports on one side and provide for spilling the hose over the other side with a clamp to secure. I use that method for adapting my drops to my Euro machines that have 120mm ports, but the same solution, appropriately sized, will work for common 4" connections, too.
    Do you have any links to the hose you'd recommend?

    I was going to use one of those Rockler quick change things with flexible hose (https://www.rockler.com/rockler-dust...xpandable-hose) and cut the hose to shorten it as much as possible, probably to like ~12ft or so extended, but sounds like there might be something better? Maybe one of these anti-static but not expandable hoses? (https://www.amazon.com/Fulton-Anti-s.../dp/B017Z1ZTN4)
    Last edited by Tom Hoppe; 11-25-2020 at 3:03 PM.

  3. #18
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    Tom, I don't have a specific recommendation for the hose...just that the smoother inside, the better and antistatic is desirable.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #19
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    May 2018
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    Lancaster, Ohio
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    ADDING:
    Per Oneida Supercell specifications you need a Nema 6-20 receptacle to plug into. As long as one of the existing 120 vac circuits is 12 gauge wire and you can isolate both ends, one in the panel on a 2pole 20 amp breaker, the other end at a Nema 6-20 receptacle or in a junction box which then feeds on to a box with the Nema 6-20 receptacle you will be good to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hoppe View Post
    I missed this comment earlier, so can you elaborate on this? I'm no electrician, but I'm not sure how I could operate 220 AND 110 at the same time in the garage. As in, if I ran 220 and setup a sub panel, but I operated a 20 amp 220v device, I couldn't ALSO run a 15 amp 110v device at the same time, right?
    What matters is the total load at any given time not be higher than the overload device installed that feeds the subpanel.
    example 2 pole 20amp breaker at main panel feeding the subpanel. need to figure 80% max load is 16 amps per leg. If 220 volt load is 6.2 amps per leg (measured not motor tag rating of 9.4 amps) and 120volt load for saw is 9.8 amps (measured not motor tag rating) than you can run both and still have up to 9.8 amps (actual measured not rated) available for air filter or other 120volt load HAVE TO HAVE THE 120volt LOADS ON DIFFERENT LEGS. This works if you are willing to measure loads and always be conscientious of actual load at all times. If you make a mistake than the breaker should trip before anything is damaged(DO NOT RELY ON THIS ALL THE TIME)
    You will need to start largest load first then next highest load, etc.
    For example If you look at your main panel, the main is rated at 200 amps, then add up all the branch breaker ratings you will be anywhere from 2-4+ times the main breaker rating 400-800+ amps. This works due to circuits rarely being at full load and all at the same time.
    So if you have 2 120 volt circuits to the garage and can consolidate them at one point, you could set a 6 circuit 220 volt panel and then feed multiple circuits off of it
    12 gauge wire would be 20 amp subpanel
    10 gauge wire would be 30 amp subpanel
    Another possibility is if you need 220 volt without a neutral then you can convert one of the existing 120 volt circuits to 22o AS LONG AS THE MAIN PANEL 220 VAC BREAKER IS ON ONE END AND THE 220VAC RECPTACLE IS ON THE OTHER WITH NOTHING ELSE HOOKED UP IN BETWEEN. Then you would have one 120vac circuit for lights, receptacles, etc.
    THIS CAN BE SAFELY DONE, IF ALL CONDITIONS ARE MET.
    Good luck
    Ron
    Last edited by Ron Selzer; 11-25-2020 at 6:15 PM. Reason: ADD NEMA 6-20 ONEDIA SUPERCELL

  5. #20
    I have two 20 amp 120V circuits in my shop and one 15A light circuit. I am fine with it. I use a 2hp HF motor/blower on top of a super dust deputy and exhaust outside. It gets the chips pretty well. My CMS could use a better chute arrangement but the DC still gets most of what it puts out. Cleans out the PCS well. I hook the lunchbox planner and jointer to it by flexible hose but it still gets their chips fine. I have some fine dust in the shop I need to deal with but I can't see "upgrading" to a 5hp DC and sacrificing the space in the hopes it will help. A filter seems like a better idea to me.

    The cyclone does two things. It greatly reduces the amount of filter cleaning you have to do (if you have a filter) and it stops big chunks and metal that might damage the impeller from going through it. Short fat cyclones do not do the first job as well - so more filter cleaning will be required. With the cyclone, there is always a loss of airflow but only as compared to a one stage with a clean filter. With my amount of filter cleaning, the cyclone is an improvement almost 100% of the time (i.e. I hated cleaning the filter). If you happen to like to clean filters you might be OK with a single stage. But the dust you have to mess with to clean the filter is what you are trying to avoid with the DC.

  6. #21
    I have the exact setup as ChrisA (post #3) with the exception I exhaust outside. Exhausting outside, while not possible for everyone, really gives a performance boost. It is doing an adequate job for me, with the exception of a couple table saws about 25' away. Basically I don't even bother to open the gates other than cleaning out the accumulation.

    IMO you don't have a ton of collection load with those machines.

    I think the decision is do you want the hassle of switching hoses or a minimal ducted system?

    Be aware anything over 1HP is going to need a dedicated 120V circuit.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
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    Winterville, NC (eastern NC)
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    Check out the wall-mounted dust collectors tested by the folks at Fine Woodworking Magazine in their latest Tools and Shops issue. Most are within your budget and would work fine for short runs of duct on one machine at a time.
    I have had a Delta 1 1/2 horse power single stage DC which has worked well for years. Only modification since initial purchase was the installation of a pleated filter to allow the use of heavy duty trash bags.
    For a small shop with limited electrical power, a single stage 110 volt unit should serve you well for a long time.
    Time to start planning for a larger shop with dedicated electrical service.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Arlington, TX
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    I believe the "efficiency advantage" of a long, narrow cyclone over a short stubby one, refers to the separation efficiency. Stubby cones may have less pressure drop, but they let a lot more dust through to the filter, clogging it more quickly.

    I have a 1.5 HP Oneida Mini Gorilla cyclonic collector, with a 10' long 5" diameter flex hose, that I roll around to each machine. It works very well in my garage shop (where almost everything rolls around anyway), and has excellent HEPA filtration. Very little dust gets past the cyclone to the filter. It is available for either 120VAC or 240VAC power. It also takes up less floor space than most any cyclone system I have seen.

    -- Andy - Arlington TX

  9. #24
    Ron, thanks for that electrical advice. I didn't even think this was a possibility, so I never thought about it. My, by far, best bet would be to get an Oneida Supercell, as that would take care of all my collection needs. Sounds like I need to get an electrician out here to get some advice. If I can get 1, 220 circuit for a Supercell and 1, 110 for everything else, that would be super rad. And at that point, the $2500 for the Supercell is worth the money, as it's my long term solution for everything.

    The Mini Gorilla is something I considered, but at $1400, I can build something that is arguably better (HF 2hp + 12" impeller + 5" SDD) for $700, since if I stay with 110v, these are all temporary.

  10. #25
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    Black Oak Ark.
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    Before you go down the HF road , at least look around for a used single stage . If located , that is a better building block than a harbor freight in my view . Jet , Powermatic , Grizzly , or Delta . I don't know the diameter of the HF shaft , but it's likely 3/4" . The other choices will transition to 7/8" shafts when you get up to 2 HP and larger , which allows for better impeller choices . They will vary on this as they are different makers , ages , etc. I have seen older 1.5 HP motors w/ 7/8" shafts . It doesn't cost to look around . Impellers can be found at ereplacements.com , Grizzly , and other sources as well . Another advantage to an older blower is the blower housing itself is likely deeper , allowing a "taller" impeller . The Rikon on the HF blower is the most common route taken , but it is not the only choice .

  11. #26
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    Sep 2009
    Location
    Putney, Vermont
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    1,042
    I bought the harbor freight 2hp collector and made the thien baffle for it which goes on top of a 30 gallon plastic trash can.

    I mounted the wynn filter for the fine dust on top of the dust collector and mounted the dust collector and the trash can onto a roll around platform so I can get closer then 10 feet to my planer and jointer. Being in the basement I do not have to move the collector or my bandsaw,planer or jointer more then a few feet which I also have on rolling platforms.

    Hooking up to each machine as I need them does not bother me because it only takes a minute or so, and the collector works very well in this situation.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hoppe View Post
    Snip...

    The Mini Gorilla is something I considered, but at $1400, I can build something that is arguably better (HF 2hp + 12" impeller + 5" SDD) for $700, since if I stay with 110v, these are all temporary.
    The SC could not handle my A3-41 J/P (or the smaller, 12" A3-31), which need 480 CFM @ 3" H2O, and have a 5" port. This is within the OMG's curve, and with 10' of 5" hose, works well.

    Add the cost of the HEPA filter to your home-brew configuration ($210 with silencer and flame guard).

    -- Andy - Arlington TX

  13. #28
    What is "SC" in your post?

    My current build list for my 2 stage 1.5hp setup is this:

    - HF Dust Motor - $150 - https://www.harborfreight.com/2-hp-i...tor-97869.html
    - 30 gallon plastic drum - $75 - https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-1601MB-.../dp/B0025QI4XC
    - 5" SDD - $170 - https://www.amazon.com/Oneida-Air-Sy.../dp/B00BEXBWS6
    - Amazon Filter - $150 - https://www.amazon.com/Cartridge-Col.../dp/B01I5X7B28
    - 4" collar for filter - $10 - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004NCG7C6
    - 6" collar for HF collector - $10 - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058IUUDG

    Should be right at $600, and I'll use scrap plywood to put it together. Since all my tools are on wheels, I'll stick with the ~10-15ft of anti static hose on the machine and either just move the hose from machine to machine, or move the machines closer to the hose.

    If I need to, I can upgrade to the 12" RIKON impeller for another $120, but I'll skip that when I start the build.

    I *think* that setup above will be better performing than the Mini Gorilla, or equivalent Grizzly/Jet product. If the Mini Gorilla was like $1k, then I'd probably be in, but $1400 after tax and shipping is hard to swallow on it.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Black Oak Ark.
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    253
    Don't use a 4" collar on the exhaust side . Why would you "choke" your system that way ? That 6" fitting is $6 at Lowes . You want to get as much air thru it as you can . Try Air Cleaning Specialists ( sales rep. Chris Peanick ) . You can get a better filter for less money .

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Tippecanoe County, IN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hoppe View Post
    What is "SC" in your post?

    My current build list for my 2 stage 1.5hp setup is this:

    - HF Dust Motor - $150 - https://www.harborfreight.com/2-hp-i...tor-97869.html
    - 30 gallon plastic drum - $75 - https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-1601MB-.../dp/B0025QI4XC
    - 5" SDD - $170 - https://www.amazon.com/Oneida-Air-Sy.../dp/B00BEXBWS6
    - Amazon Filter - $150 - https://www.amazon.com/Cartridge-Col.../dp/B01I5X7B28
    - 4" collar for filter - $10 - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004NCG7C6
    - 6" collar for HF collector - $10 - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058IUUDG

    Should be right at $600, and I'll use scrap plywood to put it together. Since all my tools are on wheels, I'll stick with the ~10-15ft of anti static hose on the machine and either just move the hose from machine to machine, or move the machines closer to the hose.

    If I need to, I can upgrade to the 12" RIKON impeller for another $120, but I'll skip that when I start the build.

    I *think* that setup above will be better performing than the Mini Gorilla, or equivalent Grizzly/Jet product. If the Mini Gorilla was like $1k, then I'd probably be in, but $1400 after tax and shipping is hard to swallow on it.
    Is this, with the addition of a 6" inlet modification, what you are planning?

    DC.jpg

    If so, note that the outlet hose is 5" so you will want a 5" collar for the filter.

    Based on what I've been able to glean from various videos and forum posts on the SDD loss factor I think you can expect performance similar to this:

    Hoppe Mod.jpg
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

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