Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 42

Thread: Need help deciding on first machines to buy!?

  1. #16
    I have no auxiliary table, and I often just work off a straight line drawn on the board. Then I joint it straight.

    This is way better for being able to get pieces in line with the grain.

    It’s also less stressful to use a bandsaw on thick stock where bogging down and twisting can happen on a table saw.

  2. #17
    I guess I have a different perspective than most here, as I was in the same place as you were awhile back.
    I called and talked to Sam about a J/P and he happened to mention a 'scratch and dent' CU300 classic that they had in the warehouse. It appears it was a machine that was refused at shipment because the crate had been hit by something and some of the accessories/fences had spilled out. The crate wasn't tipped and the slider was not damaged.

    I took the risk and bought it with no warrantee for literally almost the same price as a J/P, and its been just about the best decision I've made on any woodworking purchase.
    I ended up getting the router spindle which I use ALL the time - don't let people tell you that the lower rpm will make it a no-go - just use the largest diameter bits you can for the job, larger diameter = faster at the cutting surface. It makes a wonderful router table.
    The package also had the mortiser and I absolutely love it - unlimited flexibility on size of your mortises and I just make my own tenon stock.

    I also work in a 2 car garage and I have the machine positioned so the backswing of the slider faces the door - and I have the outrigger moved down from the front of the slider just a bit so that I can use probably 6.5' of the slider without having to open the door of the garage. If I need the full 8'(which is rare), I just open the garage door.
    I really do enjoy having the footprint of a combo machine if you are working in a standard garage - the quality you get for the space is unbeatable. I also would not be without a slider at this point - once you get used to it and build some functionality into it (Fritz and Franz mandatory) I literally do almost everything on the left side of the blade and the rip fence just becomes a stop. Much safer solution in my opinion than standing behind a blade.

    I also have the S400P(MM16) and its been awesome as well - and those are really my only 2 machines other than a small sander and old benchtop drill press. I have started doing much more finishing with hand tools as I despise sanding , and I really enjoy it.

    Also, and this may be relevant to you, I recently purchased the Harvey G700 and I absolutely love it. I was coming from a Harbor freight 2hp setup with a trashcan top separator so it was a huge step up.
    I have very short runs only to my two machines, max distance is probably 15' and its more than adequate. Air quality is great , machine is not that loud at all (much quieter than what I was expecting), and the electronics/motor are pretty good for the price (Siemens).
    If you are interested in it, I would sign up for the email blasts on the Harvey website and just wait for the flash sales. They will very frequently get the G700 down close to 2k and I've heard of it going down to $1500-$1700 range which is amazing if the collector works for you.
    I got it mainly on form factor - fits underneath a work surface, rolls around really easily even though its hefty (450ish lbs.) and has great filtering. If you can get it at around 2K and have a small shop, I would recommend it.

    Anyway, I am by no means a full time woodworker like some of these guys in the thread, and I would say they may know a lot more about what's best in general; I can only give you my take on it.

    If it were *me* and knowing what I know now, and had a 13k budget, I would talk to Sam about the Lab300 combo machine + bandsaw and see what he can do. I did actually drive a couple hundred miles to look at a Lab300 that was for sale when I was looking and it seemed like a really decent machine. Definite Minimax quality, just in a smaller package.

    All in all, if you want a compressed machinery footprint in a small space, a combo machine really makes sense - Mine has become not only my table saw, J/P etc, but its also my full time router table. I also gave away my Hitachi sliding miter saw to my Father in law because I really have very little use for it.

    Erik also gives great advice on either going Tersa or spiral. Don't even think about anything else. I have a Tersa head on my CU300 and its just flat out awesome.

    One last thing: I get where some other people in the thread are coming from with regards to cost; I will only say this. It's far more enjoyable to work with nice tools, than crappy tools. I've done both, and I can tell you that working with *nice* tools makes the journey that much more enjoyable.
    If this is a hobby, and its what you do for fun, then why not buy nice tools? Life is too short and you have to ask yourself, 'How much is my time in the shop worth to me?'.

    Hope this helps,
    -Scott
    Last edited by Scott Allen27; 11-25-2020 at 9:40 AM.

  3. #18
    I am also in the "buy the tools to fit what you want to do" camp instead of buying what to me are expensive tools and then deciding what to do with them. I build cabinets and furniture and need to do more kids toys. I use my track saw and PCS the most and routers + router table are also necessary as are hand held sanders. For furniture I buy rough sawn wood so my jointer and planner get exercised to get usable stock. My most recent major purchases (major for me) were a Festool 700 and a Jet steel frame 14 inch bandsaw. I may be done with major tools, I am pretty much out of space (shop is 14x24). My DC is a HF 2hp with a super dust deputy below it and discharging outside. Works.

    My house has 4 bedrooms, all have furniture I've made but I have a few more pieces to make so that all the furniture in those rooms is stuff I made. My two kids don't have exclusively bedroom sets I've made but most of the bedroom furniture came out of one of my shops. We all eat on tables I made and sit on chairs I made when we eat. My house also has some cabinets from my shop but the kitchen is purchased. I did make one kitchen in a former house. I mention this to emphasize that I've made a lot of sawdust and usable furniture despite my use of cheaper more basic tools. It isn't that I don't like nice tools but I've concentrated on what will do the job that needs done and that has not required a slider or big combo planer/jointer (although I haven't completely ruled that out).

  4. #19
    Those types of sliding table saws have huge footprints, in a 20x20 shop it will be a major space hog. Not to mention overkill for a hobbyist ww'er.

    You would be much further ahead with a SawStop and a track saw setup IMHO.

    The Harvey DC is very expensive, I've seen them, not that familiar with them, other than the premium price. IMHO a good cyclone like Clear Vue will more than do the job at 1/2 the cost.

    You have a good budget, my thinking is why tie it up in 2 or 3 machines, when you may be need to be thinking about other things like a drum sander, which I would venture to say is the ONE machine in my entire shop I probably value the most.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    854
    If it were me starting again, I think I would investigate foregoing the J/P and see if I could buy S3S lumber. Throw in a couple of hand planes for tweaking and build more and prep less. But that's not always possible.

    Also, I have two Minimax tools. My bandsaw wouldn't start from the factory. It took months to get them to fix it. It ended up with the tech simply removing the safety switches. My JP has been nothing except frustrating. Once my bandsaw started working, it has been great.


    That is just to say that I would look into warranties and after the sale service. Because my experience with Minimax hasn't been good. Reading this board I got the impression that jumping up to Minimax or Hammer would remove a lot of frustration with the machines, and then I could just be frustrated with my lack of talent. But that has not been the case.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Alberta
    Posts
    2,162
    Not sure where you are located but there is a Minimax CU 300 smart on the classifieds here that is in Texas. I have bought and sold more tools than necessary to get to my dream shop. One thing stands out ,Euro equipment is where I have mostly ended up . I would go for the jointer/planer combo and a big bandsaw first. Use them and see where you go from there. My path has been all used for the bigger better stuff. Probably why it took so long, but when one is working with limited funds you have to find ways to stretch them. Wheeling and dealing is a way to do this.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Western Nebraska
    Posts
    4,680
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Allen27 View Post
    I guess I have a different perspective than most here, as I was in the same place as you were awhile back.
    I called and talked to Sam about a J/P and he happened to mention a 'scratch and dent' CU300 classic that they had in the warehouse. It appears it was a machine that was refused at shipment because the crate had been hit by something and some of the accessories/fences had spilled out. The crate wasn't tipped and the slider was not damaged.

    All in all, if you want a compressed machinery footprint in a small space, a combo machine really makes sense - Mine has become not only my table saw, J/P etc, but its also my full time router table. I also gave away my Hitachi sliding miter saw to my Father in law because I really have very little use for it.



    Hope this helps,
    -Scott
    Scott, I posted that I would split my combo machine up, so just wanted to clarify a bit after reading your post. I bought a Felder CF741 for similar reasons to yours for buying your CU300. It has been a fantastic machine, I have never regretted it. The reason I said I'd split mine up is that my serious hobby woodworking turned into a job, and the demands on that machine and others in my shop changed. Now instead of building a one project to completion, I often have multiples of several going on simultaneously. My projects are now predominantly custom millwork and cabinets, which we then install in houses we've built. The Felder's main usefulness in my shop is the sliding saw. Secondary is the shaper, followed by mortiser, planer, jointer. Things have to move quickly through the shop to maintain some semblance of profit, so setting up machines between functions is detrimental. Ideally you have dedicated setups per function, but I do not have enough machine between the Felder and all the rest for that, so there is some setup that happens. Switching from sliding saw to planer makes the sliding saw unusable for crosscutting as the table becomes to narrow. If the J/P was separate, it would allow me to not have to shut down the slider to use the planer. Sometimes I can plan through it, but there are times when it's just inconvenient and wastes time.

    Back when it was solely a hobby machine, time in the shop was not the revenue stream, so having quality machines in a smaller footprint was more important than workflow. I also had a 500 sqft garage then. Shop is now pretty close to half an acre, so space saving is no longer high on the list.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    9,467
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Sims View Post
    ....I finally own a home with a dedicated workshop (20x20 double garage w/ an extra 6x6 walkway to the house door) after years of renting. I have a solid collection of hand tools that i've built up over the years since getting into this hobby but as far as "actual" power tools go I've only amassed a Bosch sliding miter saw W/ a Festool mini vac and Tormek T-8. I'm really interested/looking for J/P combo's, sliders (5'5 min), dust collection, bandsaw. Budget is maxed at $13k.

    .... around 10k ....

    Anyway's, If you had a similar garage size and budget what would you do? Would love to get some input since I really don't have a whole lot of experience outside the hand tool department.
    Jeremy, we probably have a lot in common as I am also an amateur, but some 30 years ahead of you in building up a workshop at home in half of a double garage. What I have may be what you are looking for (or at least similar to).

    My workshop is quite eclectic since I like building a variety of things, although mostly furniture. Like you, I concentrated on hand tools when I started out, and today this stands me in good stead since they are the ones I turn to for shaping, joinery and finishing. I love the machines I have upgraded to in the past decade, and use the heck out of them, but my first love is my collection of hand planes, chisels, and hand saws.

    I worked my way through disposable Taiwanese machines to my current set up. I do not aspire much beyond what I now have. These machines are such a pleasure to use, solid and dependable. I imagine around the top of your budget: Hammer K3 slider (1250 short stroke) with outfeed router table; Hammer A3-31 jointer-thickness/planer; Hammer N4400 bandsaw; Nova Voyager drill press, and Nova Saturn lathe.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto Ontario
    Posts
    11,247
    I would buy the following

    - Good cyclone, I've had an Oneida for almost 2 decades

    - Jointer/planer, I have a Hammer A3-31

    - combination short stroke slider/shaper. I have a Hammer B3 Winner, crosscuts a sheet of plywood, straight lines and rips rough material, has a scoring saw, an outrigger which mostly hangs on the wall until I need to cut something big. It also has a 4 speed, reversing, tilting spindle shaper, you can also mount router bits. This machine saves space and gives you two machines at a cost savings

    - bandsaw, at least 17", useful for making veneer, joints such as bridle joints, ripping large sections or resaw, and if you have absolutely no imagination you could cut curves with it.

    Regards, Rod.

  10. #25
    I'm not sure you can get a Clearvue Cyclone for 1k can you?
    The Harvey G700 is very often on sale for right around $2k , I got mine for $2100 (which to be honest isn't a great deal , I should have waited longer) - and I've heard from a dealer that they sometimes go down to near $1k depending on stock, demand etc. I got it mostly because I have single runs of very short distance, form factor and mobility. It is also a very well built machine that approaches dust collection in an entirely different way, probably no better or worse than a standard cyclone. It is also quite a bit quieter than any cyclone I've been around as well..if that matters to you.
    I can only give my experience with it , but I've been impressed with it so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Engel View Post
    Those types of sliding table saws have huge footprints, in a 20x20 shop it will be a major space hog. Not to mention overkill for a hobbyist ww'er.

    You would be much further ahead with a SawStop and a track saw setup IMHO.

    The Harvey DC is very expensive, I've seen them, not that familiar with them, other than the premium price. IMHO a good cyclone like Clear Vue will more than do the job at 1/2 the cost.

    You have a good budget, my thinking is why tie it up in 2 or 3 machines, when you may be need to be thinking about other things like a drum sander, which I would venture to say is the ONE machine in my entire shop I probably value the most.

  11. #26
    What are you going to build? Are you going to work with sheet goods, or solid wood, or both? For sheet goods, small shop, and a finite budget, then a good track saw and a small slider are excellent choices. I built full kitchens with a TS55 and a Hammer K3. Adding solid wood brings you to a jointer and planer, both are basic tools for a woodshop. Buying S3S or S4S lumber is expensive. Having your own jointer and planer allows you to buy 4/4, 6/4, 8/4, 12/4 rough lumber and dimension them to your needs. Occasionally, you might get a deal on rough lumber that you local lumber warehouse wants to get rid off at stupidly cheap price (600 bd ft 6/4 black cherry for $2/bdft).

    Whatever you buy, budget for a DC. ClearVue 1800 is more than adequate for a hobby shop. I have one hooked up to a 24-in planner.

    I would NOT buy a 5-function combo machine. The debate of cabinet saw vs slider is a tough one. I am in the slider camp. A J/P combo is tolerable. A saw-shaper combo is tolerable.

    Personally, I would start with: a DC, J/P, bandsaw (resaw capable, SCM), and a tracksaw. Buy European. Look on the used market (woodweb.com, CL, here, auction sites if you are adventurous). I have seen a SCM S600p went for $3000 on CL. I agree that ripping using a bandsaw before going to the J/P is sometimes more enjoyable than a using a tablesaw.

    If you don't have a router and router table, then go straight to a shaper. A small shaper is a whole lot of router, plus more. It is not as scary a machine as it appears to be and is much more capable than a router in a table. Tooling WILL cost more than the machine. You will want a power feeder, unless you do a lot of template works. Old shapers are all over CL.

    Best of luck!

  12. #27
    combination machines were the main machine for many European cabinetmakers. The machines work solid wood. You can do five functions of solid on that and a bit of sheet but it wasn't the intention. The saw on the old combos were meant to rip heavy solid. The two old guys i knew best both had SCM combos and then a cabinet saw, one two cabinet saws one was for ripping and one for cross cut. They could build anything.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by roger wiegand View Post
    OK, that's an eye opener. I've always thought of that as an extremely specialized tool used by kitchen cabinet shops and such. Can you explain its use in a general hobbyist level woodworking shop? Does it replace something else or provide a new capability? I've found a thickness sander to be incredibly useful in my work in just the last couple years-- much moreso than I thought it would be when I bought it. So I'm happy to learn about some new tool I absolutely have to have! Early on I worked in a shop that had one (at Palo Alto High School), but I never used it nor saw anyone else do so.

    Just so I'm not confused, it's a long (10 ft) belt sander on edge that oscillates a giant sanding belt up and down relative to a table for making a flat face 90 deg to the table, like a jointer on its side but with sandpaper in place of blades?
    Roger, I would say "new capability". Imagine a stroke sander, vertically. The platen is fixed and you apply pressure to the belt manually. More specifically, for edges. Honestly, I had zero experience with one prior to a year or so ago. I've sold a couple of industrial ones to shops in my area, for their sticks on faceframes, and we have sold quite a few of the Hammer units to hobbyists. I would characterize this machine as a handy time saver for the home shop. Great for sanding cutting boards, small glue-ups, little things that might be too tedious to do with an R/O sander or have a profiled edge or contour that does not lend itself to a drum sander. I don't feel like I'm explaining it correctly but maybe you get the idea. One of those "I never knew I needed it before but now that I have it, how did I get by for so long?" kind of deals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Lake View Post
    Don'tt listen to Erik about not getting straight knives. That insults all the old italians and germans and brits real cabinetmakers ive been lucky enough to know over the years some spent 60 years or more on those machines. Good salesman statement though.
    LOL, Warren. You know, I do actually use a machine once in a while and believe this or not, I've sold more straight-knife Italian combo machines than anything.

    Erik
    Ex-SCM and Felder rep

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    South Coastal Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,824
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob Mac View Post
    If it were me starting again, I think I would investigate foregoing the J/P and see if I could buy S3S lumber. Throw in a couple of hand planes for tweaking and build more and prep less. But that's not always possible.
    I also advocate this approach. Unless you're milling and drying your own lumber, this shifts the cost (and size) of industrial scale dimensioning to the lumberyard.

    I have a combination Robland in my garage (16" bed) that was used twice in ten years. I still had to buy the lumber I ran through it.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,685
    Personally, working with S3S or even just thicknessed material with rough edges would drive me bananas. I don't design or think in terms of 3/4" and 1/2", etc., for non-construction woodworking. The best thickness for material may very well be something entirely different to match the scale and proportion for a given project. I learned that a LONG time ago when I build Norm Abram's Shaker style wall clock. None of the material thickness requirements were common S3S thicknesses and it would have looked truly wonky using them. So for me, a J/P or separate tools is essential to the core of woodworking, but I acknowledge that it may not be as important for some folks. Having equivalent width capacity for flattening and thicknessing is also something that I've found to be important over the years, too, at least to me. Again, maybe not so much for some others.

    The bottom line..."what do you want to do" has to help guide these machinery/tool choices.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •