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Thread: Found new norton washita stones

  1. #31
    Mine also came today.

    I have not had metal meet stone yet but just from the feel I expect it will be a very fast stone, much courser than a soft Ark.

    A photo of four washita stones:

    wasbhitaStones.jpg

    The new stone is bottom right, bottom left is a Norton Lilly White, above it is a Pike Lilly White, and the top stone I'm not sure but it was sold as a Washita. Whatever it is not as fine as the Lilly White stones.

    ken

  2. #32
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    Same as Ken, I only had time to open the box today. Just a fingernail test makes me think it's going to be similar to my purple Washita, and a fast cutting stone.

  3. #33
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    Unpacking the Norton Washita

    I did not have time to try sharpen, but I did take the time to unpack. I need to finish a few Christmas Presents before I start testing the stone

    Let me start by saying that the entire box was wrapped in bubble wrap.

    x01_notron_new_washita.jpg

    The box has a "cut-away" so that you can see the stone, but, all I see is a brown wrapping. The stone is advertised (and is delivered as) 1/2" thick but the box advertises it as 1" thick. This is really strange.

    x02_norton_new_washita.jpg
    x03_norton_new_washita.jpg

    The other side of the box lists the part number WS688-WASHITA

    x04_norton_new_washita.jpg

    The primary item of interest on the back is that it says:

    Norton Sharpening Stones are made of the highest quality materials and are unequaled for long sharpening life, maintenance of shape and smooth cut. To obtain best results, always lubricate your stone with genuine Norton Sharpening Stone Oil. You can also use tap water in place of the oil.
    I never use water on my Arkansas stones. Plan on using oil on the Washita.

    x05_norton_new_washita.jpg

    Look at all of that wrapping around the stone. It is indeed 8" long and 2" wide.

    x06_norton_new_washita.jpg

    The part number is printed on the side of the stone. This is the same part number on the box, but although you cannot see the ruler well from this shot, it is very much 1/2" thick.

    x07_norton_new_washita.jpg

    And my stone has a bullseye.

    x08_norton_new_washita.jpg

    This stone looks very similar to the stone that they list on their web site (first picture in the post above https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....34#post3071934). I cannot say that it looks much like the others. This does not look like a Lily White or a Number 1, and certainly not the WB stones. There are some Washitas in the next post (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....36#post3071936) like those from Hiram Smith. Looks vaguely similar to something from Rafael Herrera maybe...

    Will be interested to see how they work, I just need to finish my Christmas Presents.

  4. #34
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    Washitas are supposed to come from a particular quarry. The stones we're all familiar came from this site. It raises questions that these new stones don't resemble Lilly Whites or Rosy Reds. Are they just soft Arkansas that someone at Norton had the great idea of branding Washita? Are they from the right site, but they were not selected to match the traditional appearance?
    One needs to keep in mind that these rocks were formed from sedimentary deposits beneath an ancient ocean. The dark impurities may just be color only.

    The pattern in Andrew's stone is very interesting, perhaps the ring is the imprint of some gas escaping through the freshly deposited sediment, around 400 million years ago.

  5. #35
    I found time to use the new Washita to establish the bevel on a pre-war Marples chisel. As expected the stone is fast, what will be interesting is seeing how fast it is once broken in. With first use it is between a coarse and med India stone, I expect with use it will settle in between a med India and a soft Ark.

    It could be a useful stone to have in your kit.

    ken

  6. #36
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    I had a chance to try it this morning, on a W1 timber framing chisel, right next to my old purple Smith's one. They are really quite similar. The feel, and sound of steel on stone are undistinguishable from each other. I did 20 stokes on each stone, on opposite sides of the back. Scratch pattern is a little deeper with the new one, but that's probably because it doesn't have any wear yet.

    With oil on the stone, some of the same pink colors showed up, but none of the purples.

    I'd say it's between my King 300, and Sigma 400 waterstones, and roughly the same speed. That King stone is quite a different stone from their muddy stones that most are familiar with.

    I'm very glad to have it, and appreciate the heads up on the availability. My old one is almost worn through, and I've not seen a similar one for decades. It won't be considered a finishing stone, but a very good shaping one.

    That's 10 strokes by hand on the bevel of the chisel that had been ground, but never sharpened.

    The worst thing is that it won't quite fit in the 46 year old box I've kept the old Arkansas stones in, but did find a place in the corner, sticking out a bit.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Tom M King; 11-30-2020 at 3:21 PM.

  7. #37
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    Ok I broke down in a moment of weakness and ordered one last night. 😎 Looking forward to trying it out and more reports from the field!

    Thanks,
    Kevin

  8. #38
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    Finally tested it

    So there we were, sitting around the camp fire and my daughter decided to whittle a stick with her pocket knife. She wanted to use the stick to roast marshmallows. No deal, this knife was dull. The knife is Elk Ridge, don't really know anything about them, but I handed her my Buck knife with an S30V steel, and that knife is sharp. Well, I let her use it until I had time to sharpen her knife. Today was the day.

    I never sharpened this knife and it was very dull. The sides had different angles on different sides, it was odd. So the "good side" very quickly was ready to go off the Norton Washita, but the other side I needed to remove a lot of metal and take a bit of repair. Normally I would have just pulled out one of my powered knife sharpeners, but I grabbed my Norton IM313 and used the coarse Crystolon (Silicon carbide) to take the angle down to where it needed to be. Took it just enough to pull a burr on the good side. When I did the good side on the Washita, I very quickly had pulled a burr already. I was really surprised how fast the Crystolon put the correct profile on the knife; my first time giving one of these a try.

    y01_norton_im313.jpg

    Next up my new Norton Washita stone. It looks very different with the Norton honing oil on it. This image it has oil on some and no oil on some. I was surprised how fast this cut. My soft Arkansas stone will cut, but not nearly this fast. I was able to easily cut paper after sharpening the knife with this stone. I could profile with this stone, but it would take a really long time. I was trying to do minor reprofiling on a soft Arkansas stone a few months ago and nope, too much work.

    y02_norton_washita_oiled.jpg

    OK, so this cut news print pretty easily, but this is my daughter, so drop it onto my Dan's Hard Arkansas Stone. Maybe I should have gone soft next, but figured why not. This image has the knife. Notice that it has some things that stick out that the thumb can use to pull the blade. I really like these on a knife like this, but, they stick out too far to be able to use the angle that I want in the way that I want. This stone is much harder than the Washita, I probably should have used the Soft Arkansas stone first.

    y03_Dans_Hard.jpg

    Note the blue thing in the picture above? That is an angle guide. I love those little guides. They are inexpensive and they come in a set from 10 to 20 degrees in increments of 1 degree. I bought them on Amazon. You can stack these if you want, so to get 24 degrees, you can use 10 and 14 degrees. So you can easily do from 10 to 39 degrees if you want. Amazon used to sell two sets for a good price but right now I only see single sets. Highly recommended.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N4QMO7U

    Next up Dan's Hard Black. I do own a Translucent, but Dan's claims that their Hard Black is finer. I have to admit, this put on a really nice edge. I remember when I purchased my first set of Arkansas stones, I was told by an "expert" that an Arkansas Stone could not be used to sharpen a modern knife with a stainless blade. I was very sad and immediately did some research and it seems that it really is hard enough. If you look at the stone, you can see that it was removing metal. All things considered, it feels to me like it cuts pretty fast for a fine edge. I don't mean fast as in I can profile an edge, but it is very quickly removing metal. Now that I am getting better at hand sharpening, I should run a test with my Dan stones compared to my "Best" stones (yeah, the company name is Best, pretty smart since it is the first hit for a Google search against "best arkansas stones").

    y04_Dans_Black.jpg

    I was not sure that I could make it better by stropping, but I stropped it anyway. Well, yeah, it helped. At this point, the blade is wicked sharp and has almost no resistance as it goes through news print. My daughter was impressed. This was her instant reaction to how well it cut.

    y05_Catherine_cutting_paper.jpg

    I was really impressed with the Crystolon stone as well. I will eventually try the Norton India stones.

    I am really happy with the Norton Washita stone. I think that it will wear well and it cuts pretty fast; at least new it cuts fast. I highly recommend the Washita stones. If you need to remove a lot of metal fast, buy a coarse / medium Norton Crystolon stone, it cuts very fast.

    I suspect that these Norton Washita stones are meant to work with the Norton IM200 system since that uses 8" x 2" x 1/2" stones. There are two versions, one has a coarse / medium crystolone followed by a fine India and the S version has the medium Crystolone, Fine India, then the Soft Arkansas. This is the IM200 currently at $100 (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/N...ystem-P31.aspx). You can get all sorts of Norton stones for this like a Hard Arkansas. The IM313 is the same, but the stones are 11.5" x 2.5".

    If you want something "rougher" than the washita, and more portable, just get a Combination Crystolon stone for the fast stuff (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/N...e-P179C25.aspx). You can get an 8"x 2" stone for like $25; the largest stone is 12" x 2.5"; wow. You can sharpen / fix a bunch of knives on one of these for cheap and then move on to your Washita. I don't think you would need the Crystolon unless you need to fix the blade.

    I picked up an India stone, but I have not tried it yes (https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/N...ne-P69C25.aspx), and they are cheap as well. I think that the India stone will produce a finer edge (I am told). I am only mentioning it because I think that these are some pretty good options if you want something faster than your Washita or Arkansas stones.

  9. #39
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    Andrew
    Thanks for the review. I had always read that's arks would not cut these super steels either. I think more so most people mean they are so slow that it's pointless. I got rid of my s30v as I found I liked more mild steels, especially sandvik, but when I had s30v I always used my mini belt sharpener or diamond stones.

    Along with my washita I ordered a crystolon to try, I'm truly excited to try them.

    I'm thinking it would go crystolon>washita>soft ark>hard black or should there be a india in there somewhere.

    I read a little piece from sharpening supplies saying the fine crystolon and course india were basically the same or something along those lines as Norton doesnt use the same grit rating for both crystolon and india's?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J Evans View Post
    Andrew
    Thanks for the review. I had always read that's arks would not cut these super steels either. I think more so most people mean they are so slow that it's pointless. I got rid of my s30v as I found I liked more mild steels, especially sandvik, but when I had s30v I always used my mini belt sharpener or diamond stones.
    I was left with the impression if that I was "keeping my knife sharp" that I can easily use an Arkansas stone because the silicone quartz is hard enough to cut it, but certainly not fast. OK, I don't really know if it is hard enough to cut the carbides in the super metals, but S30V and S35VN is designed to be "easy-ish" to sharpen.

    According to Norton, d
    ue to their unique composition, Arkansas stones polish as they sharpen, imparting an extremely fine, smooth edge. Because of this, they are typically used as the final sharpening step after an India or Crystolon stone is used, or to maintain an already sharpened edge. (see https://www.nortonabrasives.com/en-u...arpening-stone).


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J Evans View Post
    I'm thinking it would go crystolon>washita>soft ark>hard black or should there be a india in there somewhere.

    I read a little piece from sharpening supplies saying the fine crystolon and course india were basically the same or something along those lines as Norton doesnt use the same grit rating for both crystolon and india's?
    For sure I am not an expert, but, it is my understanding that the Crystolon (Silicon Carbide) is coarser grained than the India stones. If you want to cut fast, it should be diamond or Crystolon. There is a reason that Norton uses the standard sharpener in their three set series to be either:


    • Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
    • Medium Crystolon (P180 = 78 Micron)
    • Fine India (P400 = 35 Micron)


    or slightly more expensive:


    • Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
    • medium India (P280 = 52.5 Micron)
    • Soft Arkansas (P800 = 22 micron)


    I set the "grits" based on https://www.qualitymill.com/ASSETS/D...50_Catalog.pdf


    • Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
    • Coarse India (P150 = 97 Micron)
    • Medium Crystolon (P180 = 78 Micron)
    • Medium India (P280 = 52.5 Micron)
    • Fine Crystolon (45 Micron) [my guess is 340 ish]
    • Fine India (P400 = 35 Micron)
    • Soft Arkansas (P800 = 22 micron)
    • Hard Translucent Arkansas (6 micron)


    If you are using the Crystolon stones, the combination stone is a coarse / fine (127 micron / 45 micron) stone. I had no problem going from the medium Crystolon to the Washita with the knife.

    For some reason, in my head, I think that the India stones are more uniform in size and will provide a better edge off the stone.

    The India combination stone is also coarse / fine (97 micron / 35 micron)

    If the blade is a really hard steel, Crystolon. If the blade needs serious work and I want to do it by hand, Crystolon. If I want a more refined edge and it aint that bad, India. If I am not going to then jump to say the Washita, I want an India stone after the Crystolon. That said, a custom knife maker by the name of Joe Calton claims that he uses the Norton Crystolon Combination stone because the cost is so good and the performance is very high. I kind of like this video of his:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT4VGTHrenY

    For certain I was cutting news print off the medium crystolon stone. I assume that the Fine Crystolon will do even better. The question is where do you want to stop? I saw a very clear difference with the knife and how it handled the news print from each stone. I used: Coarse Crystolon, Medium Crystolon, Washita, Hard Arkansas, Hard Black, Strop. I think that it was David Weaver who did a video with a Washita then a strop on a plane blade and then took whisper thin shavings. Now they are doing something kind of like that with the Unicorn method with chisels.

    Can I get by without the Washita? Yeah, probably. I can probably go from a Fine India directly to a Soft Arkansas. I have not tried the India stones yet, I do know, however, that I am tickled pink with the Norton Washita and I think that you will really like the stones that you ordered. If you ever find yourself near Columbus Ohio, give me a holler and you can try some of my stones.

    Andrew

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Pitonyak View Post
    I was left with the impression if that I was "keeping my knife sharp" that I can easily use an Arkansas stone because the silicone quartz is hard enough to cut it, but certainly not fast. OK, I don't really know if it is hard enough to cut the carbides in the super metals, but S30V and S35VN is designed to be "easy-ish" to sharpen.

    According to Norton, d
    ue to their unique composition, Arkansas stones polish as they sharpen, imparting an extremely fine, smooth edge. Because of this, they are typically used as the final sharpening step after an India or Crystolon stone is used, or to maintain an already sharpened edge. (see https://www.nortonabrasives.com/en-u...arpening-stone).




    For sure I am not an expert, but, it is my understanding that the Crystolon (Silicon Carbide) is coarser grained than the India stones. If you want to cut fast, it should be diamond or Crystolon. There is a reason that Norton uses the standard sharpener in their three set series to be either:


    • Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
    • Medium Crystolon (P180 = 78 Micron)
    • Fine India (P400 = 35 Micron)


    or slightly more expensive:


    • Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
    • medium India (P280 = 52.5 Micron)
    • Soft Arkansas (P800 = 22 micron)


    I set the "grits" based on https://www.qualitymill.com/ASSETS/D...50_Catalog.pdf


    • Coarse Crystolon (P120 = 127 Micron)
    • Coarse India (P150 = 97 Micron)
    • Medium Crystolon (P180 = 78 Micron)
    • Medium India (P280 = 52.5 Micron)
    • Fine Crystolon (45 Micron) [my guess is 340 ish]
    • Fine India (P400 = 35 Micron)
    • Soft Arkansas (P800 = 22 micron)
    • Hard Translucent Arkansas (6 micron)


    If you are using the Crystolon stones, the combination stone is a coarse / fine (127 micron / 45 micron) stone. I had no problem going from the medium Crystolon to the Washita with the knife.

    For some reason, in my head, I think that the India stones are more uniform in size and will provide a better edge off the stone.

    The India combination stone is also coarse / fine (97 micron / 35 micron)

    If the blade is a really hard steel, Crystolon. If the blade needs serious work and I want to do it by hand, Crystolon. If I want a more refined edge and it aint that bad, India. If I am not going to then jump to say the Washita, I want an India stone after the Crystolon. That said, a custom knife maker by the name of Joe Calton claims that he uses the Norton Crystolon Combination stone because the cost is so good and the performance is very high. I kind of like this video of his:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT4VGTHrenY

    For certain I was cutting news print off the medium crystolon stone. I assume that the Fine Crystolon will do even better. The question is where do you want to stop? I saw a very clear difference with the knife and how it handled the news print from each stone. I used: Coarse Crystolon, Medium Crystolon, Washita, Hard Arkansas, Hard Black, Strop. I think that it was David Weaver who did a video with a Washita then a strop on a plane blade and then took whisper thin shavings. Now they are doing something kind of like that with the Unicorn method with chisels.

    Can I get by without the Washita? Yeah, probably. I can probably go from a Fine India directly to a Soft Arkansas. I have not tried the India stones yet, I do know, however, that I am tickled pink with the Norton Washita and I think that you will really like the stones that you ordered. If you ever find yourself near Columbus Ohio, give me a holler and you can try some of my stones.

    Andrew
    I can’t wait to try this “new” washita or whatever it is. My current quick set up is the coarse/fine India followed by translucent. Do you think this new washita can take the place of the combo India or I’ll be jumping to far to the translucent? I almost bought the combo crystolen stone, but thought the combo India was good enough.

    Thanks.
    Kevin

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Adams View Post
    I can’t wait to try this “new” washita or whatever it is. My current quick set up is the coarse/fine India followed by translucent. Do you think this new washita can take the place of the combo India or I’ll be jumping to far to the translucent? I almost bought the combo crystolen stone, but thought the combo India was good enough.

    Thanks.
    Kevin
    I have not yet tried the India stones but if you are happy going from the India stones to the Translucent, I would expect you could go from the Washita to the translucent based on a few things, but I put a Hard Arkansas between them and was wondering if I should have gone to the soft first. Report back your opinions after you get your stone.

  13. #43
    Interesting thread—thank you for initiating.

    Joel Moskowitz, proprietor of Tools for Working Wood, https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/joel posted a concise, well illustrated summary of the Norton line today on his blog. Worth a read...as always

  14. #44
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    I was going to mention Joel's blog too.

    My stone is going to be delivered today, so I'll post my impressions tomorrow.

    In my case, most of my tools are crucible steel and others labeled "tool steel", like some Millers Falls irons. I have some hardware store chisels. I don't have PMV11 or A2 chisels. I own one A2 block plane iron and one HSS iron from China.

    Regarding Crystolon, I have coarse and fine crystolon stones that I use to repair and re-profile chisels and irons after I grind the bevel with the bench grinder. They dish out rather soon, so when that becomes too much I lap the stones with silicon carbide grit on a glass plate. They are fast for what I need them to do, which is mostly repair work.

    Regarding India stones, I got a medium and a fine stone, they cut slower than the crystolons, but they are fast enough. The main reason I decided to try them was a comment by Bill Carter that he had an India stone on his bench that he had had since he was a boy. One of the reasons I don't like waterstones is the need to keep them flat, so if the India stones are hard enough to last and stay flat, then that's a plus for me.

    When a working edge tool needs to be refreshed, I go directly to the Washita stone and then the strop, that seems to work for me so far.

    I have a Dan's black Arkansas, in its current state it is very fine, when I bring a tool to it after the Washita I can raise a small burr with it after some time and then go to the strop. I can't tell if I get a better edge or not, I don't spend enough time in the workshop to have a more informed opinion.

    I recently got several vintage translucent stones and have sharpened a few chisels with them, they feel a little more coarse than my black ark, they can finish off an edge, but I haven't been blown away.

    I sharpen my one A2 block plane iron on the Washita stone, it does a well enough job and I don't think it takes too long. On one occasion the edge experienced several very small fractures and I was able to get past them on the Washita. The iron belongs to one of the new sweetheart Stanley block planes. I use it to plane end grain and small chamfers, it does a good job at that.

    I haven't done a lot of testing with the HSS plane iron, it can be sharpened on my Washita. It's not properly setup yet, so I can't say much about it.

  15. #45
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    Starting to sound like Old Don Q. out jousting the windmills of the perfect edge....

    December Project, flatten a panel.JPG

    Sometime, you just might have to USE that sharpened edge....

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