Getting Serious on Electric Cars?

[Jim Koepke]

Sadly, that seems to be a minority opinion. At least when I've tried to make that argument to anti-transit folks, it's fallen on deaf ears. (I mean almost every rider on BART, CalTrain, or the other options is one less car stuck with you in gridlock on the freeways. Why isn't that a good thing for everyone?)


Since we're off topic, my Mom took a little extra pleasure from the movie Rodger Rabbit because part of the background story was building freeways to take out the trolley she'd grown up with!

There is information on this in the Judith Goldsmith article:

In 1946, the still-popular Key System was purchased by National City Lines, a holding company of American City Lines, which was purchasing transit systems around the US. The stock of this company, as mentioned earlier, was held in part by automotive, gas, and tire interests. It was no surprise when the company began dismantling electric car lines one by one and running shiny new buses over the same routes

Wayne Gallup remembers the change well "I went into the army in 1956 and when I came out two years later, the trains were gone. I've never met anybody who liked the buses better."

If there wasn't a possibility of copyright issues the full article could be posted. It was still online many years ago and felt like something that should be saved. Not sure if there is anyone around who would express copyright infringement for something published in 1983 on the pages of a now defunct newspaper.

A check was done online and there is an East Bay Express web site. A note was sent to the editor to see if it would be okay to post the article here.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

One of my coworkers would always say how he wouldn't mind paying some extra taxes for high speed rail if it got cars off of the road so he wouldn't have to sit in traffic.

Part of the problem is there are way too many drivers who have the thought that others will take various forms of transit so their commute will be faster. There aren't enough people taking transit outside of a few large cities with large transit systems. Even if some cars are taken off the road there are other cars waiting to take up that space. Look up induced demand. It becomes easier to drive during rush hour so more people drive and fill up any empty space on the highways. This is why adding lanes to highways generally doesn't reduce congestion except for short term. People think that now that congestion is less they'll buy a house further out that is cheaper, or they'll take that job further from home because the commute is no longer as bad. Enough people do this and the lanes fill up.

A lot of people who want us to reduce driving don't like autonomous cars because they believe miles traveled will go up significantly. If one can work in their car then people will be willing to tolerate a longer commute. People who can't currently drive for a variety of reasons could use an autonomous car.

[Jim Becker]

There will be many habits that will need to change for "this future" of transportation to come about...that's likely a bigger challenge than funding the public side of it!

[Bill Dufour]

One of the biggest changes may come with electric vehicles. They will have to figure out how to make them pay for road usage. California has not significantly raised gas taxes in 20 years. Licensee fees have gone up a bit in that time. But, in truth, public roads are subsidized by other taxes not user fees.
Fuel taxes and license fees should pay for all highway and city streets, probably half the police and fire department cost, half of hospital emergency rooms and ambulance costs. Current fees here do not even pay to build and maintain the roads. They have to sell bonds to rebuild the highways.
Bil lD

[eugene thomas]

kind of seems California would take care of the rooling brown outs before the force whole state to have electric cars,, dryers, and stoves.

[Mike Henderson]

kind of seems California would take care of the rooling brown outs before the force whole state to have electric cars,, dryers, and stoves.

The major reason for the rolling blackouts is turning off the transmission lines to prevent forest fires when we get Santa Ana winds.

The reason for pushing people towards electric devices is two fold:

(1) Natural gas is mostly methane. When a gas appliance starts up, some of the gas escapes before it ignites. Methane is a potent greenhouse gas. And burning it creates carbon dioxide which is also a greenhouse gas.

(2) The burning of fossil fuel (mostly gasoline) in vehicles produces carbon dioxide which is also a greenhouse gas. By pushing people towards electric vehicles, and also moving the grid to renewable generation, we reduce the emission of carbon dioxide.

Seems like worth while goals to me.

Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

California has not significantly raised gas taxes in 20 years.

The taxes increased about 35% for gas and 97% for diesel in 2017. That was significant enough to result in a (failed) repeal referendum (Prop 6) the next year. They'll also be adjusted for inflation going forward.

Or maybe it's 2037 already...I've been losing track of time lately.

[Mike Henderson]

One of the biggest changes may come with electric vehicles. They will have to figure out how to make them pay for road usage. California has not significantly raised gas taxes in 20 years. Licensee fees have gone up a bit in that time. But, in truth, public roads are subsidized by other taxes not user fees.
Fuel taxes and license fees should pay for all highway and city streets, probably half the police and fire department cost, half of hospital emergency rooms and ambulance costs. Current fees here do not even pay to build and maintain the roads. They have to sell bonds to rebuild the highways.
Bil lD

There are studies going on now (I participated in one) to determine the best way to tax electric vehicles. I expect it will be by the number of miles driven. When you renew your auto plate (license) I expect you will have to report your mileage (the reading on your odometer). It's hard to cheat because when you sell the car the buyer will force an accurate odometer reading. If you were cheating, the state will charge you as part of the sale - and maybe a penalty. Other ways to check your report of the mileage is to have repair people report odometer readings when the car is serviced.

Mike

[Michael Weber]

Funding roads. in Arkansas and other states as well, if you drive an electric or hybrid, registration for them has increased tremendously. I drive a 2010 Prius. This year registration went up from 20 to 120 dollars. All electrics enjoyed an even larger increase of 200 dollars.

[Jim Koepke]

kind of seems California would take care of the rooling brown outs before the force whole state to have electric cars,, dryers, and stoves.

Sadly California's problem with rolling blackouts is mostly caused by politics, money and changes in how public utilities were regulated.

In the past California power companies had tree trimming crews. The expense was included in operating costs and provided a return on investment. When laws were changed, tree trimming no longer provided the return on investment it had. Twenty years later an arcing insulator or wind blown wires can spark a wild fire. Now California has a real mess due to the desires of those who wanted to make more profit.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

There are studies going on now (I participated in one) to determine the best way to tax electric vehicles. I expect it will be by the number of miles driven. When you renew your auto plate (license) I expect you will have to report your mileage (the reading on your odometer). It's hard to cheat because when you sell the car the buyer will force an accurate odometer reading. If you were cheating, the state will charge you as part of the sale - and maybe a penalty. Other ways to check your report of the mileage is to have repair people report odometer readings when the car is serviced.

How does mileage based tracking work if a vehicle leaves the state it is registered in? Why should I pay for miles not traveled in the state I live in? I have a vehicle that is only driven about 10% of the miles in the state of Minnesota. I don't want to pay MN mileage tax plus gas tax in other states that don't have mileage based taxes. As it is, I pay way more fuel tax in Minnesota for that vehicle than the amount of fuel I actually burn in Minnesota.

States would like to use GPS tracking for better compliance if they start a mileage tax, but there is huge pushback on that for privacy reasons. People don't want to have their location sent to government. A lot of people are worried about the data being accessible by law enforcement. I suspect part of it is they don't want to be questioned by police just because they were driving near a crime scene. I am sure if GPS units are required for cars some will refuse and others will be figuring out to block the signal or something so they don't have to pay.

[Brian Elfert]

Sadly California's problem with rolling blackouts is mostly caused by politics, money and changes in how public utilities were regulated.

In the past California power companies had tree trimming crews. The expense was included in operating costs and provided a return on investment. When laws were changed, tree trimming no longer provided the return on investment it had. Twenty years later an arcing insulator or wind blown wires can spark a wild fire. Now California has a real mess due to the desires of those who wanted to make more profit.

Sometimes lawmakers don't think through the consequences of actions they take. I've read it that PGE believes it will take at least a decade to get their system back into shape. Even a decade may be optimistic considering the bankruptcy.

Regulated for-profit utilities like to spend money on projects that can be charged back to the ratepayers as they automatically make money on that spending.

[Mike Henderson]

How does mileage based tracking work if a vehicle leaves the state it is registered in? Why should I pay for miles not traveled in the state I live in? I have a vehicle that is only driven about 10% of the miles in the state of Minnesota. I don't want to pay MN mileage tax plus gas tax in other states that don't have mileage based taxes. As it is, I pay way more fuel tax in Minnesota for that vehicle than the amount of fuel I actually burn in Minnesota.

States would like to use GPS tracking for better compliance if they start a mileage tax, but there is huge pushback on that for privacy reasons. People don't want to have their location sent to government. A lot of people are worried about the data being accessible by law enforcement. I suspect part of it is they don't want to be questioned by police just because they were driving near a crime scene. I am sure if GPS units are required for cars some will refuse and others will be figuring out to block the signal or something so they don't have to pay.

Part of the study included a device that plugged into your car and used GPS to track where you drove your miles (I used one of those devices as part of the study). The issue with it was that the device would allow them to track where you went with your car and many people had privacy concerns about that. So pick your poison - you can agree to use a GPS device and only pay for the miles that you drive in-state, or you can pay by your mileage. Your choice.

Last I heard they hadn't made a decision on what to do yet. I think there's a surcharge on license registrations right now for electric vehicles and maybe that will be the way they do it.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Regulated for-profit utilities like to spend money on projects that can be charged back to the ratepayers as they automatically make money on that spending.

During my years working for Pacific Telephone & Telegraph a lot of things were done in a way to incur more cost. This all fell into the operating cost. We were all outfitted with high quality tools. Work a couple hours of overtime and the company bought our meal. There were a few places we could just sign the receipt. Those were my steak dinner nights while single.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Part of the study included a device that plugged into your car and used GPS to track where you drove your miles (I used one of those devices as part of the study). The issue with it was that the device would allow them to track where you went with your car and many people had privacy concerns about that. So pick your poison - you can agree to use a GPS device and only pay for the miles that you drive in-state, or you can pay by your mileage. Your choice.

Last I heard they hadn't made a decision on what to do yet. I think there's a surcharge on license registrations right now for electric vehicles and maybe that will be the way they do it.

Mike

Currently in California and maybe other states drivers have toll transponders in their vehicles. In many places these are anonymously tracked to give a view on traffic conditions. Here in Washington where the interstate splits into two routes that come together again south of Portland there is an electronic sign showing travel times from the split to the reconnecting interchange. They may be using the transponders in tractor trailer rigs to clock this. There is a few miles difference between the routes. Often the longer route has a faster time due to traffic conditions in Portland. There are some tight turns in Portland and I-5 narrows to two lanes through some of the city.

With a toll transponder it is possible to put them in a Faraday bag so they do not transmit a paranoid person's location.

jtk