Role of the miter saw in a furniture shop?

[Doug Dawson]

My Omga has held square for nearly two years now, daily use. I’ve yet to see a construction saw hold square for two cuts.

My DeWalt 780 with a 100 tooth blade can cut equivalent to a fine hand saw, can do it faster, repeatably, all day long, and produces a near finish quality end grain (not that you ever want to see end grain.) Nothing more needs to be done to it. Everything fits and machines just fine.

If it was good enough for the Ancients, it’s good enough for me.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Original question was directed at furniture making.

Yes, that's what it takes to get one of the jobsite saws set for furniture parts processing.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

It’s not that they cut “so badly”, it’s that they aren’t reliably accurate to a high level of precision specifically in thick hardwood in my experience. Many would say that I have an unrealistic and “irrelevant goal of perfection” and I would call is optimal precision and accuracy that I can trust. In my experience (and I know I’m not the only one), construction grade miter saws are not reliably accurate enough in demanding furniture applications to be completely trusted. Like I said in my previous post, without defining the context of accuracy or personal expectations we can run around in circles with each other all day saying what we each believe to be true.

Some of us are “extreme” in our demand for accuracy from machines, but only because we know it to be possible and worth pursuing for our particular situation or preference.

Just to be clear, I have worked as a carpenter for many years as well and understand what is usually “good enough or acceptable” in most Homebuilding situations, but high level furniture work for clients (or yourself if you’re picky for that matter) is a totally different level of precision and can require a different build quality of machine to achieve accurate and repeatable results, in this case without having to say, take every cut to a shooting board after the miter saw because it wasn’t quite perfect.

I get it, the pursuit of perfection is a discipline in itself, sometimes that is the best day in the shop. Ironically, it's building to looser tolerances in carpentry that makes me appreciate accuracy more. That being said, finishing a project requires picking a precision level that is adequate and working within that parameter. Some are tighter than others in my shop to. However, I don't agree that all chop saws are inherently inaccurate. Heck, I have a really nice slider saw, and a cabinet of Starretts to check setups. I know what accuracy looks like. Yes you can goof up a cut with a SCMS, but you can do it just as easily on my Felder. I'm really not proud of a miter I made on the Felder for a corner fireplace mantle just yesterday.

To each their own, IMHO though the SCMS is a furniture tool to. No worries if you want to use some other method, just putting an alternative perspective out there.

[Derek Cohen]

There are different factors involved here, and they lead to many replies at cross purposes.

Working in a shop is different to working on a jobsite. I struggle to imagine Brian lugging his Olga to the jobsite I also recall that Brian traded his Festool for the Olga for the increased reliability. That brings in another factor - he is a professional woodworker and, as noted, he cannot afford to lose time.

A third factor is that the average amateur, like myself, is not working a production line.

A fourth factor is how one builds: in my furniture, generally one-offs, I fit parts to one another, and measurements are taken from the part and not necessarily from a plan or requiring a square line.

As a amateur, I also have the time for a work-around, and I suspect that the OP is the same. There are other tools to do the job, and there is the time for this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Zaret]

hey brian - i would love to know what blade you are using on your Omga. i have a tenyru blade on mine right now, and it's likely not the correct tooth profile, though it seems to cut ok. thanks for any advice.

-- dz

My Omga has held square for nearly two years now, daily use. I’ve yet to see a construction saw hold square for two cuts.

If I spend 10 minutes/week squaring a construction grade saw, that makes 520 minutes of wasted shop hours. If I spend two hours a week fixing poorly made cuts then I’m looking at 104 wasted hours per year or roughly two weeks of wasted time.

If I reference off of those cuts for tenoning, now I’m looking at even more wasted time and poorly fitting joints. Not to mention furniture that assembled out if square. Now I have to spend time fitting things and squaring cabinets that should have assembled square. More wasted time.

[Brian Holcombe]

What the heck are you guys doing with your poor miter saws to make them cut so badly???? You all do realize that 90% of furniture cuts are 90 degree angles, the other 10% are miters that can all be done at once, right? I can't think of any reason, even with a saw that has trouble finding a a perfect spot in a detent, of how anyone can't figure out how to make an acceptable cut with a chop saw. Seriously, if you have to spend Omga $, or completely avoid a chop saw altogether, you are either shooting for unobtainable and irrelevant perfection, or running the saw wrong.

Or the perfection is relevant and I know the value of wasted shop hours.

[Eric Schmid]

I like having a miter saw on the bench. Under the miter saw is storage. Over the miter saw is storage. My last shop had a 16’ long miter bench, because I had that much to store. Also served as a table saw outfeed.

One reason a miter saw is useful for my work is that it’s another crosscut tool that compliments table saws that may already be set up for other operations. If I have a table saw set up for dados and another for ripping, the addition of a miter saw allows me to leave the other saws in position. A bandsaw might also serve as a similar extension of capacity.

Some are likely more organized in their approach to building. I’m generally building prototypes or one off designs, so I’m not always able to follow a rigid process. Projects are often roughed out on paper, then fine tuned as I go. Having multiple machines that can overlap in capabilities is useful in my process. Might not be in yours.

As for accuracy, I have found fixed head miter saws to be more accurate and repeatable than sliders. I own two sliders, primarily for the versatility they offer in the field. I have tuned these to be very accurate, but they do need recalibration from time to time.

In my shop sits a single fixed head 14” Makita miter saw. It does not bevel and rarely leaves the 90 degree detent. It cuts as accurately as it did when I last calibrated it some years ago. I make finish cuts for passage door rails and stiles with it, amongst other things. Cuts are very accurate.

[Brian Holcombe]

hey brian - i would love to know what blade you are using on your Omga. i have a tenyru blade on mine right now, and it's likely not the correct tooth profile, though it seems to cut ok. thanks for any advice.

-- dz

Tenryu Miter Pro Plus, produces a glass-like finish.

[roger wiegand]

Just for the record, I'd like to submit that I have made terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts using a powered miter saw, a table saw, a fancy hand saw, a jig saw, shooting board and plane, chain saw, laser cutter, and probably a half dozen other means of dividing a board in two. It is completely possible (not even hard!) to make an unacceptable cut with virtually any tool given insufficient skill and attention.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Just for the record, I'd like to submit that I have made terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts using a powered miter saw, a table saw, a fancy hand saw, a jig saw, shooting board and plane, chain saw, laser cutter, and probably a half dozen other means of dividing a board in two. It is completely possible (not even hard!) to make an unacceptable cut with virtually any tool given insufficient skill and attention.

I think we’ve all been there, Roger!

[Bill Carey]

Just for the record, I'd like to submit that I have made terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts using a powered miter saw, a table saw, a fancy hand saw, a jig saw, shooting board and plane, chain saw, laser cutter, and probably a half dozen other means of dividing a board in two. It is completely possible (not even hard!) to make an unacceptable cut with virtually any tool given insufficient skill and attention.

Holy cow - a sharpening thread disguised as a discussion of miter boxes. I agree Roger, but would add that “terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts” may in fact be perfection for some.

It is not a matter of perfection being relevant or irrelevant, but rather that perfection is relative – we each decide the degree of difficulty we are willing to endure (or in the case of OMGA tools, to purchase) to achieve what we each determine to be perfect. And having pegged our standards to a certain level, then repeatability, speed and consistency are processes to be developed to support that standard.

Regarding a job site box being (un)able to make 2 perfect cuts in a row, I took it as a challenge. First I squared up a 2x5 inch piece of white oak on my Cutech jointer (I’m sure to some, mistake number 1), the ran it thru the Dewalt planer (number 2?) set the 40 year old Ryobi to 90 and made a cut. According to my Starrett, perfect. Made the second cut – same thing according to my Starrett. Not exactly a unicorn, but there ya go.

And I’m sure there is an ASTM standard that would show the cuts to be absolutely horrible. But I would wager there is an ASTM test that would show the same lack of perfection on cuts made by an OMGA box. An angstrom here, and angstrom there – it all adds up.

Being an old and poor fool, I succumb to the eventuality – I make do.

[jamil mehdi]

There are way too many people here who think their way is the ONLY way. Miter saws can be as accurate as you need them to be. All tools can be dialed in and all tools can be sloppy. People who say a crosscut sled is better are ignoring that many shop built crosscut sleds aren't very accurate because not everyone builds a perfect sled. People who say miter saws are only good for construction aren't taking into account permanent mounting, different blades, accurate fence stops, and tuning.

I have two miter saws set up to make repeatable cuts. One is a slider with a thick Tenryu blade used for 90 degree crosscuts on faceframe and door parts, the other is a non slider used for miters (followed up by a miter trimmer). The saws are both permanently mounted and the outfeeds are flat and the fences are square, have shop stops, and they are set back 1/4" from the miter saw fence to allow for breaking down rough boards.

I tune the big saw every week or two, but it rarely needs adjustment. The space below the feed tables are used for tool and hardware storage. And the the whole work station doubles as a nice long flat area for layout or parts storage when not being used.

I have nothing against miter sleds, but I deal with a lot of 8' finished length pieces, so a miter sled has no real use to me. Also, from a production standpoint, crosscut sleds are simply not efficient enough for me when dealing with a few hundred pieces of different lengths. In my shop, a miter saw is essential.

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. The original question is "Does a miter saw have any place in a furniture shop". The true answer is "It can have a place, but doesn't have to". Anyone who says a hard yes or a hard no may have a helpful point of view, but their inflexibility should be a warning sign that you're getting a very biased opinion.

[Andrew Seemann]

Just for the record, I'd like to submit that I have made terrible, out of square, out of plumb, not straight, nasty rough cuts using a powered miter saw, a table saw, a fancy hand saw, a jig saw, shooting board and plane, chain saw, laser cutter, and probably a half dozen other means of dividing a board in two. It is completely possible (not even hard!) to make an unacceptable cut with virtually any tool given insufficient skill and attention.

I don't think I have found a tool yet that I haven't found a way to use inaccurately. I also have used many tools and methods to produce beautiful, straight, cuts, that were, say, exactly 1 inch short, or off by exactly 5 degrees. Not to mention countless mirror images of what I had intended to do

Just last night I cut some dados for Z clips, with exactly the right offset, measured exactly from the wrong side of the board, which was exactly what I told myself not to do before I cut them. I even had to take the handle of my biscuit joiner before I did it, to allow the tool clearance to do it from the wrong side. At least I didn't cut them on the face side of the board too.

[Brian Holcombe]

There are way too many people here who think their way is the ONLY way. Miter saws can be as accurate as you need them to be. All tools can be dialed in and all tools can be sloppy. People who say a crosscut sled is better are ignoring that many shop built crosscut sleds aren't very accurate because not everyone builds a perfect sled. People who say miter saws are only good for construction aren't taking into account permanent mounting, different blades, accurate fence stops, and tuning.

I have two miter saws set up to make repeatable cuts. One is a slider with a thick Tenryu blade used for 90 degree crosscuts on faceframe and door parts, the other is a non slider used for miters (followed up by a miter trimmer). The saws are both permanently mounted and the outfeeds are flat and the fences are square, have shop stops, and they are set back 1/4" from the miter saw fence to allow for breaking down rough boards.

I tune the big saw every week or two, but it rarely needs adjustment. The space below the feed tables are used for tool and hardware storage. And the the whole work station doubles as a nice long flat area for layout or parts storage when not being used.

I have nothing against miter sleds, but I deal with a lot of 8' finished length pieces, so a miter sled has no real use to me. Also, from a production standpoint, crosscut sleds are simply not efficient enough for me when dealing with a few hundred pieces of different lengths. In my shop, a miter saw is essential.

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. The original question is "Does a miter saw have any place in a furniture shop". The true answer is "It can have a place, but doesn't have to". Anyone who says a hard yes or a hard no may have a helpful point of view, but their inflexibility should be a warning sign that you're getting a very biased opinion.

Rather, I’m providing my point of view, something which was requested by the OP. If you disagree, that’s fine.

Im of the very strong opinion that only industrial chop saws, industrial radial arms and Sliding table saws can produce repeatable accuracy for years without constant adjustment and make joints which fit together perfectly tightly.

If you are getting that out of a job site chop saw, great. I had to do more to achieve it.

[Frederick Skelly]

In my shop, a miter saw is essential.

This to me is the crux of the argument. For what I build, and for how I use it, my CMS is a valuable tool - in MY shop. For someone like Brian Holcombe, who builds magnificent, delicate, hyper-precision Japanese screens and such, it's not. So, I agree with what Jamil said - "Does a miter saw have any place in a furniture shop. The true answer is It can have a place, but doesn't have to".

And as Bill Carey points out, what I can afford is also important. I cant justify many high end tools for my hobbyist shop - it doesnt make sense, for ME. So I've learned how to set up what I have to get the most out of them.

YMMV