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Thread: Steel Ducting for Shop DC

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ole Anderson View Post
    I haven't seen the inside of spiral duct. What are it's advantages compared to same gauge snap lock? I can't imagine it is any smoother on the inside.
    There are 2 kinds of spiral duct. One has the spiral crimp on the inside of the duct, the other on the outside. For dust collection, you want the crimp on the outside. The inside is almost perfectly flat. Of course, snap lock is smoother, you can catch your fingernail on the seam, but just. In the real world, it is not enough to catch dust or chips. I've not had a problem with accumulation, even in the 8" duct, which is almost oversized.

  2. #32
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    Even with spiral with the "wrong" inside, I suspect the performance will be better than snap ock because the transition between sections will be cleaner. Those end crimps on snaplock are going to have some level of disruption to flow as compared to the very low profile of the sleeves used for spiral. IMHO, of course, and not scientifically proven.
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  3. #33
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    The advantage of clamp together duct is the reduced installation time. The owner can be running sooner. It’s also very easy to add branches and reconfigure as you grow or needs change.

    Spiral should be more than fine for home use. It is not usually recommended for business/ industrial dust collection but I do see a lot of it. Seems like there are limitations on its pressure ratings but probably wouldn’t apply to most home/hobby systems due to smaller blowers. Clamp together is only in 5ft sections so it may need more supports than welded duct which is often 10 ft sections. Can’t remember if spiral meets NFPA or not, the smooth interior type might?

    I like Jim’s hybrid approach for home use, I’m going to consider that when I make some changes.

    If debating metal or plastic, I would lean toward metal. More size, fittings, and hood options. It can be grounded. Probably less cost for metal unless you are doing all 4” and can get the green S&D pipe.

  4. #34
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    I used both 4 & 6" S&D PVC and bought it and fittings at Menards.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael W. Clark View Post
    Spiral should be more than fine for home use. It is not usually recommended for business/ industrial dust collection but I do see a lot of it. Seems like there are limitations on its pressure ratings but probably wouldn’t apply to most home/hobby systems due to smaller blowers. Clamp together is only in 5ft sections so it may need more supports than welded duct which is often 10 ft sections. Can’t remember if spiral meets NFPA or not, the smooth interior type might?
    While I have seen Nordfab in some commercial shops, like the one I mentioned previously, almost all of the commercial shops I've been in or have seen photos of have spiral for their large DC network systems. It can be very study stuff and while some pressure is a factor, static pressure remains low. Air flow is what DC works on.
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    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael W. Clark View Post
    Spiral should be more than fine for home use. It is not usually recommended for business/ industrial dust collection but I do see a lot of it.
    I've seen a lot of commercial shops & spiral is all they use. Never seen Nordfab or any other clamp style duct in a commercial shop.
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 11-12-2020 at 12:52 PM. Reason: fixed quote tagging

  7. #37
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    I should have said industrial instead of commercial. We don’t do as much in commercial with our equipment. One of our brands at work is a Nordfab competitor. There is a big market for clamp together duct and woodworking applications are one of the main segments in that market. IWF was one of their main shows to attend.

  8. #38
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    When I say commercial, I mean not a hobby shop. I would say that a business that manufactures stuff would be an industrial facility. I this context, commercial & industrial are really the same thing.

  9. #39
    Every cabinet or furniture factory that I have ever been in uses nothing but spiral duct. Norfab is significantly more popular with small hobby/semi-small commercial shops than they are with true industrial production facilities. I have spent time in factories all throughout the rust belt and never once seen anything other than spiral pipe.

  10. #40
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    I don't doubt that you still see a lot of spiral in the places you reference, but I promise you the clamped duct is not just being used by hobbyists and small commercial. There are at least (3) companies that supply a similar product, KB Duct (our company's brand), Nordfab, and US Duct. A lot of this gets sold through distributers that are also reps for equipment (woodworking, dust collection equipment, etc) so the ducting gets incorporated as a package with the equipment a lot of times.

    I think Nordfab may be part of Nederman and I know they do a lot of commercial/industrial systems with their equipment brands. Donaldson who is probably the largest player in the market for cartridge dust collectors pairs this type ducting with their systems and so do their reps when it is appropriate. I'm not sure what percentage of sales of this ducting goes into woodworking applications, but I know it is significant. Donaldson and Nederman are not seen that often in hobby shops.

    The brand I work for (Fisher-Klosterman), we supply equipment (cyclones and scrubbers) into wood processing facilities such as for sawmills, planer mills for construction lumber, plywood, OSB, MDF, wood pellet, wood drying, etc. Most all the ducting connected to our equipment is welded and flanged. They do use some clamped duct on smaller branches now sometimes, but welded is still more the norm for new, but occasionally see some sprial there on old systems. Often these systems are large due to the airflows required so the DC equipment is large and heavy too. These systems can be over 100,000 ACFM, but doesn't compare to steel mills where those systems can be well over 1M ACFM!

    I'm not saying spiral isn't used or isn't suitable, we have installed on some applications too, but it is not used near as often as welded or clamped from what we see on a normal basis. Perhaps we are not as involved as heavily in some of these other industries. I know they use a lot of open collectors and Dantherm, Agget, and others do a lot in this market.

    IMO, spiral would be considered for light industrial applications where there is no concern with abrasion, corrosion, or excess humidity (like from a dryer). This would fit a lot of furniture and woodworking applications just fine. Clamp together would be a step up for the advantages already discussed, then welded would be the next step up for many industrial applications since you have so much flexibility in gauge and materials and go much larger for the bigger airflows.
    Last edited by Michael W. Clark; 11-14-2020 at 10:54 AM.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael W. Clark View Post
    I don't doubt that you still see a lot of spiral in the places you reference, but I promise you the clamped duct is not just being used by hobbyists and small commercial. There are at least (3) companies that supply a similar product, KB Duct (our company's brand), Nordfab, and US Duct. A lot of this gets sold through distributers that are also reps for equipment (woodworking, dust collection equipment, etc) so the ducting gets incorporated as a package with the equipment a lot of times.

    I think Nordfab may be part of Nederman and I know they do a lot of commercial/industrial systems with their equipment brands. Donaldson who is probably the largest player in the market for cartridge dust collectors pairs this type ducting with their systems and so do their reps when it is appropriate. I'm not sure what percentage of sales of this ducting goes into woodworking applications, but I know it is significant. Donaldson and Nederman are not seen that often in hobby shops.

    The brand I work for (Fisher-Klosterman), we supply equipment (cyclones and scrubbers) into wood processing facilities such as for sawmills, planer mills for construction lumber, plywood, OSB, MDF, wood pellet, wood drying, etc. Most all the ducting connected to our equipment is welded and flanged. They do use some clamped duct on smaller branches now sometimes, but welded is still more the norm for new, but occasionally see some sprial there on old systems. Often these systems are large due to the airflows required so the DC equipment is large and heavy too. These systems can be over 100,000 ACFM, but doesn't compare to steel mills where those systems can be well over 1M ACFM!

    I'm not saying spiral isn't used or isn't suitable, we have installed on some applications too, but it is not used near as often as welded or clamped from what we see on a normal basis. Perhaps we are not as involved as heavily in some of these other industries. I know they use a lot of open collectors and Dantherm, Agget, and others do a lot in this market.

    IMO, spiral would be considered for light industrial applications where there is no concern with abrasion, corrosion, or excess humidity (like from a dryer). This would fit a lot of furniture and woodworking applications just fine. Clamp together would be a step up for the advantages already discussed, then welded would be the next step up for many industrial applications since you have so much flexibility in gauge and materials and go much larger for the bigger airflows.

    Thank you for sharing such an informative reply. I would love to find an old or well used outdoor tower style dust collector that I could vent into a large dust pile outside my shop. Something that could handle a whole shop worth of machines (not more than 2 going at the same time if that). I have been looking for a unit like this that is well used and either still usable or needing to be rebuilt. Let me know if you come across anyone who might be letting one go

  12. #42
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    Bobby, given the economic situation right now because of the pandemic, you may actually see industrial equipment like that start to appear on the various machinery auction sites around the country. It's less likely you'll see that stuff on typical consumer focused venues like CraigsList, FB Marketplace, etc.
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  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Bobby, given the economic situation right now because of the pandemic, you may actually see industrial equipment like that start to appear on the various machinery auction sites around the country. It's less likely you'll see that stuff on typical consumer focused venues like CraigsList, FB Marketplace, etc.
    Jim you are definitely right about that. I watch every Craigslist in a 1,000 mile radius. I would prefer not to go through a big machinery dealer as I have found much better deals on used equipment dealing with individuals, auction sites, ect. I find the machinery dealers to be overpriced and not on the same level of negotiating prices. Eventually one will come up. I have missed a few that did come up on Craigslist. I would be willing to drive anywhere in the contin US to get a nice big unit.

  14. #44
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    No question, buying from individuals is often more cost effective. But the nature of what you want means you're more likely to find it at auction when a commercial shop is liquidated. That's the only reason I suggested watching the auctions..."what you want".
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

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