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Thread: epoxy versus hide glue, am I missing something?

  1. #1
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    epoxy versus hide glue, am I missing something?

    I get that epoxy is much much more expensive than hide glue.

    But I already own, gosh, almost 2 gallons of West Systems 105 resin and 4 or 5 different hardeners and I got some wood flour and some colloidal silica and some high density bedding additive (#404) for mounting cleats on racing boats, 16 million popsicle sticks. I am pretty much set up with the stuff. About 80% of the materials I need for the next boat I build are in the garage already.

    I have some time off coming up in a couple weeks. I want to build the side table out of Paul Seller's introductory text book - my first glued up panel, and if that doesn't suck I want to glue up some more panels to make a sawtill (galoot style) to replace my current plywood and drywall screw cludge.

    I am getting away from using PVA, the inability of PVA to stick to itself is kind of bothersome. Upcoming I am kinda sorta planning to make tool chests for each of my four kids so when they buy a house I can set them up with some basic tools and storage space for what tools they add as homeowners.

    Other than price is there another compelling reason to invest in a glue pot and granules and all the rest rather than just dribbling a bit of epoxy out of my existing (already paid for) supply?

    FWIW the table and till will be in American Beech that I bought kiln dried and has now been stickered and stacked on the floor of my office for more than one year. Planned finish is oil and wax.

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Scott, there are three immediate features of hide glue which win over epoxy ...

    1. Parts joined by hide glue is more easily dissembled for repair or if you wish to correct an error. It is possible to add new hide glue over old hide glue - in other words, not removal of old glue is necessary.

    2. Hide glue can both set very rapidly or very slowly. Hot hide glue can act like a contact glue, setting as it cools in sometimes seconds. Or liquid hide glue (Titebond or Old Brown) has a long open time, which is handy for joints like dovetails.

    3. Cleanup is so much nicer with hide glue! Any excess squeeze out is cleaned in warm water.

    But note ...

    Epoxy is gap-filling, while hide glue is not.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  3. #3
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    I have used a fair amount of epoxy over the years either making a couple small boats or working on our sailboat. I have used in on wood working projects but it isn’t my preference. I find the set up to take too long and it’s often wasteful to mix up glue for a small job. I much prefer PVA for joinery over epoxy but have not used hide glue so can’t compare. I do plan on buying some liquid hide glue to try in the future.

  4. #4
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    Thanks fellas, I had seen all of these valid points in previous threads here when I searched before I posted.

    One thing that kept popping up is not many previous posters here think the pre-mixed liquid hide glue is as good as the do it yourself flakes and a heater and a thermometer. I didn't see one post where anyone said "I like the premixed liquid better than flakes." I might have missed it, but the clear consensus is the flakes are, over all "better."

    The other thing I only alluded to was my boat building hobby. I got into making things with corners a couple years ago because the next boat I want to build, an am intimidated by, has some joinery in it I am afraid of. Clamping odd shapes I am OK with.

    I think I will go ahead and at least try the small table with epoxy before I invest in a hide glue set up.

    Appreciate the reality check.

  5. #5
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    The biggest thing I don't like about epoxy is that you have to be really careful with clamping pressure and joint fitting. If you apply too much pressure when gluing up a panel, or have a snug mortise and tenon, is it will starve the joint and loose strength. Epoxy prefers a thick glue line. Second is getting the epoxy on me, my bench, or tools makes for messy cleanup. With PVA it will chip off the bench and easily washes off my hands. And third as mentioned, you either have to over mix an amount you think you need, or be forced to stop the glue up while you mix up some more. I've been woodworking for 44 years. I have yet to have a failed joint or panel seam. So the problem of PVA sticking to itself for a repair is a non-issue for me.

  6. #6
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    For a lot of glue ups I'm not a huge fan of the initial tack that hot hide glue has. Other than that, there's the glue pot to deal with. I really don't see a lot of minuses of to liquid hide glue vs hot personally. If I was doing rub joints, that'd be a different matter. I do, however, prefer hide glue in general to to PVA, even if this thread is brought to you by PVA it seems
    Last edited by mike stenson; 10-14-2020 at 3:43 PM.
    ~mike

    happy in my mud hut

  7. #7
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    I like epoxy for complex glue ups because of the extended open time & the fact that it doesn't cause a snug joint to seize before fully assembled. Otherwise, I use PVA. Not sure why PVA not sticking to itself should be a concern, unless it's for repair work on an old joint.

  8. #8
    I tried hot hide glue. I found several issues with it.

    1. It takes a while for it to get hot so you have to plan ahead when you have a glue-up.
    2. The glue goes bad after a certain time (days) and you have to make more. Keeping it in the frig will make it last longer.
    3. It's almost impossible to do a complex glue-up with hot hide glue. For example, doing a glue-up of dovetails is almost impossible because the glue gels before you can finish applying it to all the dovetails and get the work together.
    4. Some people claim that you can apply finish over hide glue and it won't show. That's false. Hide glue shows up under a finish just like PVA.

    One claim is that you can reverse a hide glue joint but for things like a M&T, I found (in a test that I did) that it was essentially impossible to get the wood hot enough for the glue to release.

    When modern glues became available woodworkers (both commercial and hobby) converted from hide glue en masse because the modern glues were so much more convenient to use.

    And to comment on Richard C's comment that you can over tighten an epoxy joint - I do not believe you can do that. I've used a lot of epoxy and have never held back on the clamping and have never had a failure. It's been shown that with PVA you cannot overtighten a joint with hand clamps and I believe the same is true of epoxy.

    For me, PVA is my go-to glue but for certain applications epoxy is preferable (such as very long open time).

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    And to comment on Richard C's comment that you can over tighten an epoxy joint - I do not believe you can do that. I've used a lot of epoxy and have never held back on the clamping and have never had a failure. It's been shown that with PVA you cannot overtighten a joint with hand clamps and I believe the same is true of epoxy.


    Mike
    I didn't make that up;
    https://www.westsystem.com/instructi...ding-clamping/ "Avoid using too much clamping pressure, which can squeeze all of the epoxy mixture out of the joint."
    https://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_ba...echniques.html
    A No-Pressure Situation
    Why does a woodworker often experience failures when using epoxy adhesives? They use clamping pressure (as opposed to simply closing the joint) and squeeze out most of the epoxy, leaving only a thin film that is absorbed by the wood. A starved joint results.

    https://www.lord.com/sites/default/f...74_LORD310.pdf Maximum adhesion will occur only with parts which mate well without the need for excessive clamping pressure during cure. Excessive clamping may squeeze too much adhesive from the bond area which can result in a poor bond

  10. #10
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    Another reason, for me, to stick with what I know and have used before. It makes perfect sense to me for me to keep using epoxy for the next couple projects with corners o further hone what skills I have for the next boat.

    I have had glue starved joints with epoxy before, but never epoxied beech before.

    My mind is made up that I will try the basic table with epoxy - after making a couple test joints. I brought in all this beech because Robb White (boat builder of middlin repute, RIP good sir) insists epoxy bonds to oak unreliably; I do prefer figured white oak for furniture when going to the trouble of making it myself.

    Please do add additional comments for the edification of future search button users. I am going to use epoxy for the table, and then decide what adhesive to use for the saw till.

  11. #11
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    Hot hide glue certainly is different, and has some unique properties, but I've never had any problems with liquid hide glue for joinery. It works as well as yellow glue for new work with interior projects and has a much longer open time. Unless I wanted to start hammer veneering I see no reason to go to the expense and trouble of making hot hide glue.

    I don't understand why the OP would worry about PVA not sticking to itself; that's a non issue to me with the new work he's considering.

    John

  12. #12
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    If you want to use small amounts of hot hide glue, freezing in an ice cube tray can be useful. When you thaw a cube, you can keep it warm for hours by floating its container in an insulated coffee cup of heated water. Obviously this is not the way to go for larger amounts.

    The hot stuff is good if you are in a hurry or can't use clamps. If you have plenty of time to let it dry, liquid hide glue works fine.

    If you want to mix up only a small amount of epoxy from gallon jugs, get a couple of plastic syringes. (Get the all-polypropylene type, not the ones with rubber-tipped plungers, because the rubber does not stand up to long-term contact with epoxy resin.) Drill a couple of holes side by side into a block of hardwood to fit the Luer tips. Fill one syringe with resin, the other hardener, and store them standing in the holes to seal. You can accurately measure out in seconds the correct ratio of hardener to resin using the syringe markings. For 2:1 epoxy a 5 mL and a 10 mL syringe helps make sure resin and epoxy don't get mixed up.

    With either PVA or hide glue, if you clamp to a very thin film it will grab. This holds the surfaces together if you rearrange clamps or something. With epoxy there is no grab, and I think this may be the reason for some starved joints. If you squeeze out excess with pressure and then rearrange clamps or somehow give it a chance to come apart before cure, it will. Reclamping then may not have enough glue. But if you put epoxy on surfaces and then just clamp very tightly without giving it a chance to move, I'm not convinced you can starve the joint.

  13. #13
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    In order of preference:

    1. Titebond/PVA. Easy to use and Clean Up. It’s White Paper Glue Cousin Also on Top.
    2. Close Second Epoxy. The West System Cans are Right on the Countertop With a Supply of Plastic Cups. Great for Short or Long Glue Ups.
    3. Liquid Hide Glue. For Veneering.
    4. Hot Melt Glue. Great for Cardboard Boxes and Temporary Glue Ups.
    5. CA Glue with Accelerator. Great for Jigs, Temporary Glue Ups and Trim.
    6. Hot Hide Glue. I’d Have to Really Think About the Last Time I Used This.
    Regards,

    Tom

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