Carcass saw

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Stephen,

Yes i failed to take that into account. You are right that they have a 10-12 week lead right now.

Andrew,

It sounds like a lie nielsen or veritas may be a better choice for my needs right now. While having a handle tailored to your hand would be nice, i dont feel im at the skill level that it would make a difference for me.

Maybe i will put in an order for the veritas and get back to work. I still have my little japanese saw while i wait for the veritas to ship.

They have them at my local Woodcraft so you could pop on over if you have one near you and take it home. The biggest problem with ordering one is that it is almost impossible to resist other goodies when you order it

I think that the Veritas dovetail saw is great, I have cut a lot of dovetails with it.

[Ben Ellenberger]

Yes, I use the cross-cut for tenon shoulders, for cutting small pieces to length, basically any joinery that requires a cross cut. I’ve noticed lots of people recommend a dovetail saw filed rip, a carcass saw filed cross-cut, and a larger tenon saw filed rip as the three joinery saws to have. As I’ve made more things that recommendation makes more and more sense to me.

I’ve also noticed that those are the only 3 joinery saws that Lie-Nielsen make, so they must think that is a pretty complete set.

[Jim Matthews]

While that makes me sound like a cheapskate, is there anything about these saws that makes them so expensive? After some research it looks like they are hand made. I know skilled labor isn't cheap, so i assume that has a lot to do with it too.

I want to buy local, and I want to buy quality, but I also look for value.
Anyone have any opinions on the bad axe saws? Am i better of buying a Veritas carcass for now and adding a lie nielsen down the road?

This concern is legitimate. What you're doing, when you buy from smaller makers is keeping the craft alive. While you can rehab older saws to working, usable shape - it's a surprisingly difficult thing to get precisely right.

Bad Axe, Wentzloff on Bontz have already worked out those kinks.

If you're looking for a well made alternative to these in traditional materials Gramercy tools and Florip tool works make fine saws, for a price below Bad Axe.

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/GT-CSAW12.XX

http://floriptoolworks.com/ready-saws

Full disclosure, I own several Bad Axe and Bontz saws.
After learning how to use a pull saw, my "go-to" rip saw is a large, cheapo Ryoba.

I have a smaller pull saw that handles dovetails, tenons and crosscuts.

[steven c newman]

Or, get one you can adjust...
Rip..
Bishop saw results.JPG
Or, just flip the plate over..
Chisel box, one side sawn.JPG
Either a 9ppi, or the 15ppi....bar can serve as a depth stop.

Bishop No. 10. I hear that Disston also made one...

[Curt Putnam]

I have the full complement of Veritas saws and a dovetail saw by Isaac Smith (Blackburn Tools) and a bunch of dozukis and a couple of ryobas. From all of this I have learned that each saw is an individual tt some extent. Pick one and get to know it. After about the 1st 20 - 50 cuts, they all cut the same. They all use the same steel so it is all in the filing. My hands are apparently oversized and I've learned the value of a tote that matches the hand. There is value in bling because Mark gets his price for it. Note also that Veritas does not offer a sharpening service - whereas the boutique makers do.

[mike stenson]

All this thread made me do is order a plate, back and nuts.

Sometimes I hate these threads, but it's so much fun to make tools.

[Ron Bontz]

If your hand is of average size and you are concerned about cost, the Nielsen is a good choice and maintains it value well, if taken care of. The newer style handles look to be more comfortable than the original, to my eye, but I have not tried one for a while. You may wish to take a look at Florip Tool Works, as well. Being CNCd to some extent, the Nielsen, Bad Axe, Veritas, and Florip Tool works, are production saws, hence if you drop / break the tote it may be a lot easier to replace the handle. Veritas is obviously the best bang for the buck. If you have a larger hand or just want something a little different etc., then the more customizable, more expensive, saws may be a better choice.
Good luck with your search.
Best wishes,
Ron

[Jason Buresh]

Jim,

Thanks for the response. I also have a ryoba and enjoy it for some crosscuts and rip cut. But i find i am more accurate with a western saw on wider boards. I also have a 6" dozuki that i have been using for dovetails, but i am not a fan. Its just not a good saw for that task.

Ron, thank you for the advice. I would say i have an average size hand, so maybe a stock saw will do just fine

I appreciate everyone's responses, and here is my thoughts on the information i gathered. This may be long winded.

I watched a video by rex krueger where he tested affordable joinery saws. He did a demonstration where he showed the veritas rip carcass is capable of dovetails and small tenons. I have a little 6" dozuki which is capable os smaller crosscuts but sucks at rip cuts such as dovetails or tenons.

I then recently visited bad axe tool works and found they make saws in my home state. Though more expensive, I thought it may be good to support local. I was wondering if there were special features or materials that set these saws away from thw pack. It sounds like these saws are manufactured with high quality materials and can be custom fit to your hand.

After reading everyone's responses, i have determined the bad axe may not be my best choice at this time. I am in my late 20's and neither my dad or my grandfather work with hand saws or hand tools in general. I have been relying on books, youtube, and this wonderful forum as a source of learning. What i am getting at is I still have learning to do as far as sharpening and cutting goes, and me buying a boutique saw would be the equivalent of giving a 16 year old a Ferrari for their first car. I am looking for the toyota camry of handsaws. I need something reliable, economical, and functional. I feel like with my current skill set that I do not have the skill to appreciate such a fine tool, and it will work great until it gets dull and i need to sharpen it. I realize i can send a saw out to get sharpened, but its a skill i want to learn. And although in theory its not a super complicated task, i would rather make a mistake on a $80 saw than a $300 saw.

So i think i am going to go with the Veritas, as Lee Valley has them in stock. I will sometime in the future order a high end saw, but i dont think now is the right time. I understand the theory that you should always buy the best you can afford, but I just dont think it makes sense to self teach yourself how to sharpen on the Ferrari of hand saws.

Maybe my logic is flawed?

P. S. Ron I visited your website and you have some exceptional saws to offer. I like that you offer closed handles, as far as looks go that is my preference. I will proudly be purchasing one of your saws in the future

[Jim Koepke]

At this point in my life i am more worried about functionality than glam, and being i dont have much experience sharpening, the more affordable Veritas may be a good set of training wheels.

My training wheels came on the many inexpensive saws found at yard sales and other sources of lower pricing.

So i think i am going to go with the Veritas, as Lee Valley has them in stock. I will sometime in the future order a high end saw, but i dont think now is the right time. I understand the theory that you should always buy the best you can afford, but I just dont think it makes sense to self teach yourself how to sharpen on the Ferrari of hand saws.

This is a well reasoned approach. After all if you ever do want an upgrade if the Veritas saw hasn't been abused it can likely be sold with little loss of value.

While that makes me sound like a cheapskate, is there anything about these saws that makes them so expensive? After some research it looks like they are hand made. I know skilled labor isn't cheap, so i assume that has a lot to do with it too.

The big makers are making many more saws at one time. Much of the work may even be contracted out to individual vendors. The person who cuts the teeth on an automatic machine may not be in the same building as the person who files the teeth on another machine.

The smaller makers likely have more workers doing more than one step of the process. The smaller makers do not have thousands of other products to support a workforce.

P. S. Ron I visited your website and you have some exceptional saws to offer. I like that you offer closed handles, as far as looks go that is my preference. I will proudly be purchasing one of your saws in the future

My dovetail saw from Ron is one of my most prized possessions.

Bontz Dovetail Saw.jpg

This was a kit with all but the handle.

jtk

[mike stenson]

Like Jim, all of the saws I used when I was figuring out how to sharpen came cheap. As cheap as I could find them cheap. Side effect was learning how to fix handles. Those left me feeling 'comfortable enough', that I'll try making one from scratch soon.

[Jason Buresh]

Jim and Mike,

I assume you are referring to cleaning up panel saws? At least in my area coming across vintage joinery saws is very rare. I suppose the closest thing to a joinery saw i could practice on is to buy a cheap old miter box with a back saw.

[Jim Koepke]

Most of my first dovetails were cut with a back saw from a small miter box.

One of my current dovetail saws was found in an antique mall.

A lot of antique malls and junk shops have an amazing amount of inventory turnover. That is how they stay in business. Get to know the people at the counter.

Second hand stores and even pawn brokers get some decent stuff at times.

Get to know them and let them know what you are interested in buying. Visit them when you can so they get used to you coming back. You might get to be friends with some of them and be on the hunt for you.

jtk

[mike stenson]

There really isn't a significant difference between a panel and back saw IMO from a shaping, setting, and sharpening point of view (the kinds of things you're going to do as general maintenance most likely). Just size... and to be honest, it's easier to learn (I think) on the bigger teeth.

[Jim Koepke]

Just size... and to be honest, it's easier to learn (I think) on the bigger teeth.

If nothing else the bigger teeth make it easier to see your mistakes.

jtk

[Erich Weidner]

I am looking for the toyota camry of handsaws. I need something reliable, economical, and functional. I feel like with my current skill set that I do not have the skill to appreciate such a fine tool, and it will work great until it gets dull and i need to sharpen it. I realize i can send a saw out to get sharpened, but its a skill i want to learn. And although in theory its not a super complicated task, i would rather make a mistake on a $80 saw than a $300 saw.

So i think i am going to go with the Veritas, as Lee Valley has them in stock. I will sometime in the future order a high end saw, but i dont think now is the right time. I understand the theory that you should always buy the best you can afford, but I just dont think it makes sense to self teach yourself how to sharpen on the Ferrari of hand saws.

Maybe my logic is flawed?

I wouldn't say flawed logic. And I don't think anyone will characterize the Vertias line as a Toyota Camry of hand saws (Well, I wouldn't). I also think buying the best you can afford is almost always the best choice. But sometimes you don't know what you want yet, (or even if you are going to love hand sawing) so going too crazy on the first purchase might lead to buyers remorse, or something you need to sell to recoup some of the cost by reselling.

That being said, nothing wrong with going for the Bontz or Bad Axe if it is in budget and you *know* you are going to love hand sawing. I started out with Japanese saws, and just never really got to like them much. Got a Lie-Nielson dovetail saw then wanted a full set of backsaws. I went whole hog on the Bad Axe trio and boy do I like them. No regrets. (The waiting is the hardest part).

FWIW, one thing to consider is that you won't need to sharpen that new well sharpened saw for a while (year or two, maybe more). So you are learning what a good well made saw cuts like and it isn't like you won't have time to acquire some garage sale saws and learn to sharpen on them in the mean time.

PS. Though the Bad Axe dovetail saw I like appreciably better than my LN, it isn't the difference between a Camry and a Ferrari. (Well, I imagine it isn't... I've never driven either of them) I'm just saying they aren't night and day different.
I've not used the Veritas saws, but I own many of their other tools and are all great.