Morning tails, lunch pins

[Tim Best]

Hi all,

In the spirit of Jason's recent Critique my dovetails thread, I decided to throw my first hand cut dovetails out there. No jigs, no guides! Just a knife, a pencil, a square, a sliding bevel, a dovetail saw, a coping saw, and a couple of chisels. Over the last week, I have cut tails before I take my 24 step commute to my home "office" and tails during my lunch hour. (I like cutting the tails in the morning as it seems to put my head in a good space before the workday begins. I tried cutting a set of pins first dovetails one morning and that messed up my whole day )

While these are not pretty, they are a very snug fit. I am not posting the entire week's worth DT's, but I see a little bit of improvement with everyone. Most importantly, I am getting more comfortable sawing to line with my dovetail saw--the coping saw I am using to clean out waste is another story. Anyway, in the spirit of displaying successes, failures, and/or combination of both here are my morning tails and lunch pins from today.

DTJ.jpgPins only.jpgTails only.jpg

[Ben Ellenberger]

Nice! I recommend making lots of little storage/organization trays and boxes for the shop. It is a great way to practice dovetails and end up with useful things.

[Tim Best]

Hi all,

Morning tails and lunch pins for today. The pics below are of the fifth set in 6 days If the collective will indulge, I have a couple of observations and questions. Sorry about the funky rotation. (It is the way I snapped the photo even though I saved it in another orientation.) I think I am approaching something resembling usable dovetails. I have been experimenting with different tail slopes and numbers of tails and pins. All are cut by hand without guides, jigs, etc. This morning I cut the tails at a random slope that turned out to be ~10*. During lunch, I cut the pins.

First observation: I think I prefer slopes at 14-16* (I work in degrees because rise over run makes my historian brain hurt.) Anything less than 14*, looks more like finger joints to me and not very aesthetically appealing. Also, I think I prefer larger tails. Wife's opinion: "I do not care...just build the damn quilt chest!"

Second observation: With every set I cut, the tails stick up too much (too proud?) at the top (I do not know another way to describe it.) I know some aim for tails that are a little long, but I am not aiming for any proudness. I use the thickness of the tail board to mark the pin board and vice versa. I milled these boards and all edges/faces were square before I started cutting. In these pics, the tails are not seating well. A previous set seated well but were still proud on top. Is this just a matter of inaccurate marking? Should I just drop the tail board baseline a little more when marking to correct this issue? It is obvious from the pictures, that taking a little more of the tail board baseline while cleaning the pins will not correct the problem. This seems to contribute to the appalling baseline gaps. Any thoughts/suggestions/tips/tricks to address this problem?

Third observation: The upside is that the joints are snug--maybe a little too snug. Is there a point where too snug becomes problematic? Too loose I get. I understand that once glued they may swell, but how snug/tight is too snug before glue? The joint in the pics took a couple of moderate mallet taps to get into place.

Last observation and question: I have now cut about 25 tails and pins over the last week and it was apparent tonight that my saw is in need of a sharpening. I have crudely sharpened a couple larger panel saws, but I have not attempted to sharpen something as small as my 12 tpi carcass saw. I'd rather not ruin a dulling saw by trying to sharpen it. Any tips other than use a good file and keep the file straight and level?

Thanks in advance.

Tuesday.jpg

Tuesday Pins.jpg

[David Eisenhauer]

Tim, a 12 pt dovetail saw (filed rip) should be able to be sharpened by even those of us that are amateurs (or not very experienced at any rate) at sharpening. Rip filing is 90* across the saw plate and 90* in the vertical plane to the saw plate. I paint Dychem (or a felt marker) on the teeth prior to sharpening so that I can keep track of where I am in the sharpening process. Even a sharpening job by those of us that are not as good as we perhaps can be one day results in a better cutting saw. I try to keep my file strokes evenly pressured and counted to be the same across each gullet I attack in an attempt to maintain some level of consistency in the entire saw plate. I try to go for a consistent stroke rather than a fast and furious bash across the gullet. Try it, you won't make it worse. I use the LV files that (I think?) come from Bahco or someone reputable like that. Question on your dovetails - Are you seeing that baseline gap on the inside of the drawer to match the gap on the outside? If not, are you ensuring that the baseline is chopped/pared flat (90*) across the baseline thickness when you work from both sides to pare down to the base line? The baseline paring can actually be undercut some when paring to the center of the material from both the top and bottom sides so that a proud center does not prevent the tails from fully seating. I use Derek Cohen's blue tape trick to make my side and baseline saw cuts to and it seems to be easier to saw closer to the line when making the pin saw cuts than following a gauge line. My eyes may be older than yours though. Make sure your tail cuts are 90* across the thickness of the tail material (or even slightly less than 90*) and not angled out slightly past 90* because that will result in side wall gaps. One thing that may cause proud tails is that the side and front/back material thickness is not quite same and your gauge is set for one of the thicknesses and does not match the other thickness. Closing up the gaps on the side saw cuts on the pin saw cuts can be done with experience, but the baseline gaps seem like something is not right with the material or layout.

[Jim Koepke]

Rip filing is 90* across the saw plate and 90* in the vertical plane to the saw plate.

That would be a rather aggressive saw, possibly difficult to get started for someone less experienced at sawing.

Go to > http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/library.html < Read the "Saw Filing--A Beginner's Primer" it has helped me by reading it many times, often just before working on a saw.

For me, a marking gauge or knife works better than a pencil for a base line. Often my gauge/knife line is followed by a very sharp pencil to make it easier to see. An important point here is to remember if marking the pins from the tail board or the tails from the pin board that the pencil line or knife line is in the area to be saved. Another way to see this is that the line is not in the area to be sawn. This was a difficult part for me when first starting on dovetails.

Base lines should be considered as inviolate or sacred when making dovetails.

One item that will be very helpful is a small square. My first one was shop made and used while making a box out of firewood. It was found to be so helpful it convinced me to purchase the > Lee Valley Small Double Square < It has really helped my dovetail work. My shop made square was given to my grandson who is beginning to do a little woodworking of his own.

My shop made square was used here > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750 < in making a box of alder firewood. There are a lot of tips learned over the years of making dovetails.

When the joint is made too tight, wood tends to split putting them together. Expansion of a piece during glue up has not been a problem for me. My current project is in poplar. The dovetails dry fit rather tight. The glue almost seems like a lubricant, making the joint easier to close at assembly.

My pins & tails are almost always cut proud.

This is the dry fit of my current project:

Proud Pins & Tails Dry Fit.jpg

My original thoughts were toward trimming them proud as on another recent project:

Finished Sofa Box.jpg

Eventually my decision was to trim them flush. This is fairly easy with a sharp chisel. My preferred chisel for this is a 1-1/2" paring chisel, though a smaller chisel would also work fine. Those images haven't been uploaded to my computer yet.

Before starting on this project my practicing on cutting dovetails was like yours. It always seems to help to warm up the old skills. Also my saw needed sharpening so that was attended to during the days of practicing.

Hope this helps,

jtk

[Tim Best]

Question on your dovetails - Are you seeing that baseline gap on the inside of the drawer to match the gap on the outside?

Hi David,

Yes, the gap, inside and outside, seems to match on every set that I have cut. The tails are also proud on every set. Both pieces of material are the same thickness, 7/8". I use the blue tape method as well--it is much easier to mark tails. As Derek notes on his website, it removes the need for multiple marking knife passes to mark the pins. I'll keep experimenting. With any luck whatever I am doing wrong will become obvious with time.

Re Saw sharpening: Thanks for the tips. I gave it a go this morning. It does cut better and still tracks straight. That is a win I suppose.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi David,

Yes, the gap, inside and outside, seems to match on every set that I have cut. The tails are also proud on every set. Both pieces of material are the same thickness, 7/8". I use the blue tape method as well--it is much easier to mark tails. As Derek notes on his website, it removes the need for multiple marking knife passes to mark the pins. I'll keep experimenting. With any luck whatever I am doing wrong will become obvious with time.

Re Saw sharpening: Thanks for the tips. I gave it a go this morning. It does cut better and still tracks straight. That is a win I suppose.

Tim, my aging eyes must be deceiving me. It appears your pins and tails are actually not as tall as the thickness of your stock.

One condition to possibly cause a tail board from not fully seating is if the pins are not cut square vertically. This will jam the process.

Another is any little bit of wood in the corners at the base of the tails can block proper seating. Make sure it is all clear.

With the gap showing on both sides holding it up to a light should help to indicate where the blockage is stopping the full seating to the baseline.

Some advocate cutting tails less than proud and then planing the surfaces to match.

Whether a person prefers proud, even or below surface pins & tails, it is all controlled by the setting of one's marking gauge or square used to mark the base line.

jtk

[Tim Best]

When the joint is made too tight, wood tends to split putting them together. Expansion of piece during glue up has not been a problem for me. My current project is in poplar. The dovetails dry fit rather tight. The glue almost seems like a lubricant, making the joint easier to close at assembly.

My pins & tails are almost always cut proud. jtk

Jim,

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I do mark with a marking gauge and then darken the line with pencil. Even though I have started using the blue tape method, I still darken with a pencil and then obviously take to much with the saw. It is easy to do while I am simultaneously focused on every other action that is required for a decent saw cut. The Tuesday tails and pins were cut away before I closely inspected the corners, but I suspect that the corners were not as clean as they should have been.

The Wednesday set were an exercise in futility! I should have walked away instead of banging my head against a brick wall. I guess I should take a pic for posterity. There is always tomorrow.

Thanks again.

Tim

[mike stenson]

I'm sorry if I missed this in the thread, but do you check between the tails and pins to make sure it's flat?

[Tim Best]

Hi Mike,
You didn’t miss it. It never occurred to me to check for flatness in between 🤦*♂️. Should have been obvious and probably is to most, but not me. Thanks.

[Jason Buresh]

Looking good! The pursuit of progression is addicting isnt it?
IMG_20201002_180529944.jpg
This is the first joint on my cabinet i cut. Not bad, but some small gaps.
IMG_20201004_152405906.jpg
This was the last joint.

I do not consider myself good at this, but if I had any tips to provide its saw confidently but leave the line, and to try and leave very little waste with the saws. I learned quickly the less waste you leave the saw the quicker, easier, and cleaner the chisel work is. I was being conservative at first and not sawing close to the line. Its faster to take your time with the saw than to saw fast and have lots of clean up.

Thanks for sharing your results!

[Tim Best]

Hi Jason,

The pursuit is addictive. Learning something new, despite the maddeningly unfortunate results, is also addictive. A sane person would throw in the towel and grab some pocket hole screws—sanity is overrated!

Tim

[Jim Koepke]

Jason's images show a common phenomenon. The last set of dovetails always seem to look much better than the first. That has me cutting the back dovetails for drawers first.

For my latest project a box worth of practice dovetails were cut before starting on the box. It did help in determining the layout and such.

Of course like everything else in life there were other challenges along the way.

jtk

[Tony Shea]

This is my latest project. It's going to be a mud room shelf with 2 drawers. I was relatively happy with the dovetails.


Entry SHelf dovetails1.jpgEntry Shelf1.jpg

[Tim Best]

Nice looking dovetails.