Frustrated with jointing

[Thomas Colson]

Picked up a few Sergents on CL for cheap cheap, got them tuned up and scary sharp. Wanting to learn how to live the Neanderthal lifestyle so I'm just messing around with scrap wood, smoothing and jointing. Smoothing and flattening is no problem with the 409. My problem is with technique on jointing anything from 6-48" long. Clamp it up in the vice, I'm getting paper-thin shavings across the entire width (3/4), but no matter how careful I am, how I hold the planer, how slow or fast I go, I always manage to take what was once an edge 90 deg to the face and skew it, by many degrees, to the left or the right. It can be either direction. I'm clearly not doing something right, or the 1,323,312 videos I've watched on hand jointing left out a secret key detail (Lee Valley marketing? Buy their 500$ jointer then it will work?). I can repeat this on S4S lumber fresh off the shelf at wood craft, or what just came off the saw mill. Yes the blade is perfectly parallel to the sole. Unfortunately Covid cancelled the numerous hand plane classes that are normally offered in my area until there's a vaccine, and there's now a years long wait list to get back in those classes, apparently I'm not the only one that picked up some CL hand planes during the covid shutdown.

[ken hatch]

Picked up a few Sergents on CL for cheap cheap, got them tuned up and scary sharp. Wanting to learn how to live the Neanderthal lifestyle so I'm just messing around with scrap wood, smoothing and jointing. Smoothing and flattening is no problem with the 409. My problem is with technique on jointing anything from 6-48" long. Clamp it up in the vice, I'm getting paper-thin shavings across the entire width (3/4), but no matter how careful I am, how I hold the planer, how slow or fast I go, I always manage to take what was once an edge 90 deg to the face and skew it, by many degrees, to the left or the right. It can be either direction. I'm clearly not doing something right, or the 1,323,312 videos I've watched on hand jointing left out a secret key detail (Lee Valley marketing? Buy their 500$ jointer then it will work?). I can repeat this on S4S lumber fresh off the shelf at wood craft, or what just came off the saw mill. Yes the blade is perfectly parallel to the sole. Unfortunately Covid cancelled the numerous hand plane classes that are normally offered in my area until there's a vaccine, and there's now a years long wait list to get back in those classes, apparently I'm not the only one that picked up some CL hand planes during the covid shutdown.

Thomas,

Check with a square often. A straight edge on the plane can often lead to taking the edge of the board out of square because it doesn't take much of the plane taking a slightly bigger bite on one side to take the edge out. I like using a slightly cambered cutting edge so I can adjust by slightly moving the plane from one side to the other. Then if needed take the last pass or two with a straight cutter. The key is checking often and not letting it get grossly out of square. For straight edge sometimes it helps to take a few passes just out of the middle then plane until you get a full length full width shaving. It is also easy to make the ends lower than the middle, bottom line check often and correct early.

ken

[James Pallas]

What Ken said. You have to get your built in level working. It may help you to mark a square line across the end grain an 1/8 or so down from the edge you are working and checking often. Once out of square you have to take corrective action. If you let the plane have it’s way it will get progressively worse. The cambered edge works but you need to watch someone use the technique to get the routine down. Both for chambering the iron and using it.

[mike stenson]

Just tagging on as reinforcement? It's also not so easy to keep a square edge square. I hit that point, and stop. I also try and leave a hollow in the middle until everything's ready for a final pass or two. Kind of like face jointing. If it's a hump, it's way too easy to let it get out of control

[Jim Koepke]

Thomas, Jointing an edge is possibly the most difficult use of a bench plane. My technique for this is explained in the 16th post in this thread, Pointers and Techniques > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?148076

You will have to become a contributor to see the images, a good use of $6.

Here is the text:

In my last job I wrote a manual for rebuilding the equipment we worked on in the shop. One of the exercises suggested was to use the calipers and spacers to train the worker's eye to be able to look at something and determine the size of items in the 0.001" to 0.040 range. Of course, if one had feeler gauges they could also train them self with this or a similar exercise.

The goal would be to reach an ability to look at the edge of a board with a square and if it did not show square, know by the gap how far it was from square and then, knowing the thickness of their shavings be able to square the edge with a known number of passes.

The board shown was about 0.005" out of square. I was making shavings just a little over 0.001".

[image not included]

The plane is set on the board's edge and tilted very slightly. The left hand is working like a gauge fence. The shaving is also being watched and is only taking a shaving on about 1/4 of the edge on the high side. The next pass will be registered on this narrow flat. This will result in a shaving about 1/2 of the edge's width. Another pass with a 3/4 shaving and one full width shaving and the board should check square.

One surprise of doing this is that pretty soon, you will find you are making square edges without the trimming.

I often do the same with a jointer, here is a #7 being used. Be careful and check for possible splinters before doing this.

Also when jointing an edge a #409 can be used, however, a longer plane like a Sargent #414 or a Stanley #5 would be a better choice for short pieces. For longer work, something like a #7 or #8 would be preferable.

The shorter planes are more susceptible to rocking from side to side.

In the long run it is all about developing your technique of planing.

jtk

[Thomas Wilson]

I have the same problem. There are some ways to cheat. 1) Make a jointing shooting board. Mine is a piece of 1/2 plywood with a stop screwed to the end. My bench flat so I can use the bench top as the track. I clamp the work piece on top of the shooting board and stroke away with the plane on its side get a nice square edge. 2). Get a fence for your jointer. Mine is Veritas and is at its best with a Veritas plane but it is designed to work with any plane. Just hold the fence securely against the true face of the work piece and again skill level for jointing come back down to something mere mortals can achieve.

[Jim Koepke]

The cambered edge works but you need to watch someone use the technique to get the routine down. Both for chambering the iron and using it.

Having someone to show you techniques can be a great help.

You may want to list your location in your profile. You may live close to someone who would be willing to help you get this settled.

jtk

[Robert Hazelwood]

Does the error happen in a consistent way, like you are always taking too much off of the side closest to you or vise versa? If so you may be biasing the pressure to one side or the other. For edge jointing I put my left hand to the side of the plane and press down with my thumb on the area behind the front knob, centering the thumb pressure over the edge. I use my left hand fingers as a fence to keep the plane centered over the edge. I do not use the front knob at all, and use a fairly loose grip on the rear tote to avoid influencing the plane- I want it to rest completely flat on the edge being planed.

It's difficult to set the iron perfectly parallel to the sole. The more passes you take, the more the slightest discrepancy will cause an error. Let's say you get it to half a thou higher on one side, and take ten passes. One side is going to be about 0.005" higher and that will show up under a square.

So to some extent this is inevitable, especially if you are taking many passes to joint an edge. Check often and learn how to make subtle corrections. As you gain skill you will be able to joint with less shavings taken to get the edge straight, and then this sort of issue is reduced.

It's also possible that you may have an issue with the sole of the plane. Perhaps a twisted sole could cause this sort of error?

[Christopher Charles]

All the above. And I only use my left thumb held on the base of the plane (not knob) to push down and 'drive' with my right hand. Learned that even then I was changing angle/tilting some as I moved long the board, usually while taking a step, so started paying attention to more than hands. That helped me a lot.

[Tim Best]

Thomas,

Jointing an edge is difficult, but as with many things it becomes easier and more intuitive the more you do it. As Ken noted, check often with a square that you trust. I would add take light passes on the edge. It is easier to see a problem developing using light passes. Also, as Ken suggested, creating a slight hollow in the center 1/3 of the stock you are trying to joint is very helpful. Mike Siemsen has a good video on this that made sense to me. For me, the thinner the stock, the more difficult it is to joint an edge. Are you checking the to-be-jointed edge with a straight edge of some sort before you start working on it? It helps me to know what I am working with before I start removing material. Also, this may be the digital equivalent of kicking a hornet's nest, but I rarely drag out my jointer plane. Even on longer pieces, I find I can usually get a good edge with my #5.

[John Stankus]

If you are jointing for an edge glue up, joint both boards at the same time so the errors match.

John

[glenn bradley]

(Lee Valley marketing? Buy their 500$ jointer then it will work?).

I love my Veritas planes but, have pre-war and war-era planes as well. The BU Jointer is only about $300 and you do see them for sale used for a bit less and I would never fault someone for wanting a new tool. Will it solve your problem? Probably not.

I even have the fence attachment For my BU Jointer in a drawer somewhere that I picked up to help me learn to stay in position. It did do that and the muscle memory and technique do stick. Should you dump some cash when you already have a decent plane? I wouldn't. You could clamp, double stick tape or otherwise cobble a fence onto one of your existing planes to get an idea of what the benefit might be. I will say once you get your legs under you, the fence becomes a hindrance rather than a help.

[John Stankus]

If you are jointing for an edge glue up, joint both boards at the same time so the errors match.

John

Here is what I meanEdge jointing.jpg

[Prashun Patel]

I have the Veritas jointer. It's a good plane - but don't get it just for the auxiliary fence.

Practice. Color an edge and take thin shavings. You'll see where your pressure is off. After a while (take it from me; if *I* can do it anyone can), you can just feel it. Check frequently - like every 3-4 passes. With time, you'll have to check less.

As a crutch, you can hold a square block to the sole and the side of the board and use that as a fence to keep you square. You have to take light passes here. Your fore hand will not be able to hold the knob, so the passes have to be light.

I see a lot of folks that want a magic switch to make them proficient. The fact is, it requires practice - but not beat your head on the wall practice. You have to get good at analyzing your errors. This is where coaching saves you a bunch of time.

[Jim Koepke]

If you are jointing for an edge glue up, joint both boards at the same time so the errors match.

John

This works great in theory. One problem with a shorter plane like a #409 (Stanley #4) is if it creates waves. Then you will have high and low areas that can cause gaps.

For the best results when joining two pieces, use a longer plane.

jtk