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Thread: Oilstones versus water

  1. #16
    I have used oil stones for the last 10 years. I have made quite a bit of furniture with hand tools and as a result sharpen a lot. I use a guide, a medium india, a black arkansas, and a strop. Sharpening for me takes 3-5 minutes. I also hollow grind on a grinder when needed. Keep in mind at some point your oil stones will need to be flattened too. For this task I use loose grit with windex on a piece of granite about every 10-14 days. Takes me about 10-15 minutes to do both sides of two stones. This process also cleans the stones and they cut like new when done. The medium india has to be flattened 2-3 times more often than the Arkansas, and I buy a new one every 2-3 years. I still have my original Black Arkansas

  2. #17
    What is this loose grit thing? Does it affect the granite?

  3. #18
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    It could be silicon carbide grit. That's what I use, but on float glass, simply because I have a large piece and it's lighter and disposable. I presume he's using a granite counter top piece or tile, not a graded flat piece.

    Will granite wear faster or slower than glass? My glass piece has certainly wore, but it's not out of flat yet.

  4. #19
    For those of us who freehand, if we use the whole stone, will likely never need to flatten or "refresh" our polishing stone. Much the same story with the softer stones although an occasional refresh will keep them cutting faster if you wish. I can't really answer the question about loose grit on granite but I would think the granite would be softer than the loose grit.

    I know broken record and all that rot but: I find jigs introduce more problems (such as needing to flatten your stones more often) than they fix and learning to freehand sharpen is simple and easy to learn. I also know this is semi off topic but only semi because not needing as much stone maintenance is one of the advantages of oil stones vs. synthetic water stones.

    ken

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan west View Post
    I have used oil stones for the last 10 years. I have made quite a bit of furniture with hand tools and as a result sharpen a lot. I use a guide, a medium india, a black arkansas, and a strop. Sharpening for me takes 3-5 minutes. I also hollow grind on a grinder when needed. Keep in mind at some point your oil stones will need to be flattened too. For this task I use loose grit with windex on a piece of granite about every 10-14 days. Takes me about 10-15 minutes to do both sides of two stones. This process also cleans the stones and they cut like new when done. The medium india has to be flattened 2-3 times more often than the Arkansas, and I buy a new one every 2-3 years. I still have my original Black Arkansas

    Do you a sharpen a lot of narrow chisels or carving tools? I ask because flattening oilstones every 2 weeks seems very excessive. I have had my India stone for about 3 years now, and despite being the hardest-worked stone in my collection it is essentially the original thickness. I expect it would last decades of serious hobby use. I do scuff it with a diamond stone to keep the cutting speed up, but it doesn't require flattening. However I am freehand sharpening mostly wider chisels and plane irons and make a point to use the entire stone. I could see where sharpening things like small gouges all the time would wear the stone it in certain areas and require more frequent flattening.

    With that said, if you do need to flatten an oilstone then loose silicon carbide grit is a good way to go. If your surface is granite I would recommend using a plastic laminate sheet (available from lee valley) as a sacrificial surface for the grit to embed in. Otherwise I exepct the SiC grit would eat the granite as much as the stone, though if you are careful to use the surface equally you could manage to keep it fairly flat.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hazelwood View Post
    Do you a sharpen a lot of narrow chisels or carving tools? I ask because flattening oilstones every 2 weeks seems very excessive. I have had my India stone for about 3 years now, and despite being the hardest-worked stone in my collection it is essentially the original thickness. I expect it would last decades of serious hobby use. I do scuff it with a diamond stone to keep the cutting speed up, but it doesn't require flattening. However I am freehand sharpening mostly wider chisels and plane irons and make a point to use the entire stone. I could see where sharpening things like small gouges all the time would wear the stone it in certain areas and require more frequent flattening.

    With that said, if you do need to flatten an oilstone then loose silicon carbide grit is a good way to go. If your surface is granite I would recommend using a plastic laminate sheet (available from lee valley) as a sacrificial surface for the grit to embed in. Otherwise I exepct the SiC grit would eat the granite as much as the stone, though if you are careful to use the surface equally you could manage to keep it fairly flat.

    I had the same reaction…I used a 8" x 3" x 1/2"-thick India stone for about five years, working close to full time in the shop, and it lost about 1/8" in thickness. I'd normally abrade it once every month or two with the loose SiC on glass. It normally take only 30 seconds to abrade it, maybe a minute at most.
    Also, another thumbs up for the plastic laminate sheets. They save the glass, but they also just do a much better job of holding the abrasive grit in place.
    Last year I shelled out for an Atoma 400 and I now use that to resurface my Arkansas stones--it's more convenient and less harsh on the stones. I still use the loose SiC on the India stone though, because it's coarser.
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  7. #22
    I used a fine India stone until I bought a Washita stone in 1977. The India stone was used over 100,000 times and never flattened or abraded. I measured the wear for the first time this morning. It was about .005 thinner in the middle than the ends. If it had been hollow from side to side it would have been a problem, but it was flat from side to side.

    My black Arkansas (1976) has never been abraded and is still 1.000 inches thick.

  8. #23
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    Warren,

    How about the medium and coarse India stones, are they more likely to need periodic maintenence?

    I have a combination crystolon stone and it needs lapping every few months.

    Also, how often does your Washita stone need maintenance?

    Wouldn't the sharpening technique used affect the likelihood of wearing the stone unevenly? What are the do and don'ts of free handing?
    Last edited by Rafael Herrera; 10-10-2020 at 11:11 AM.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafael Herrera View Post
    Warren,

    How about the medium and coarse India stones, are they more likely to need periodic maintenence?

    I have a combination crystolon stone and it needs lapping every few months.

    Also, how often does your Washita stone need maintenance?

    Wouldn't the sharpening technique used affect the likelihood of wearing the stone unevenly? What are the do and don'ts of free handing?
    Rafael,

    Not Warren but I'll still put my 2 pennies in. When I first got my Washita I made sure it was flat. BTW, it wasn't far off and have not touched it since. Yes technique matters. Work the sides and ends occasionally "hanging ten", the middle will take care of itself if you spend most of your time using short strokes on the ends.

    ken

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    Another difference is in the "shine" of the polished edge, if your end all and be all is the shine of your edge you may not like oil stones or even JNATs for that matter. Just remember shine does not equal sharp nor is it necessarily an indication of how smooth the surface is. The one place synthetic stones can best natural stones is grinding. A India works well for grinding.

    Good luck, natural stones are worth the effort.

    ken
    I have to respectfully disagree. Any microgrooves left in the honed surface leave small tooth grooves right through the cutting edge. If you look at microscopic photos of honed edges with varying degrees of stone grits, the finest edges have the least grooves and the sharpest edge.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Yacey View Post
    I have to respectfully disagree. Any microgrooves left in the honed surface leave small tooth grooves right through the cutting edge. If you look at microscopic photos of honed edges with varying degrees of stone grits, the finest edges have the least grooves and the sharpest edge.

    Bill,

    You either did not read or understand my post. If I read your reply correctly we are in agreement, the scratch pattern at the cutting edge has an effect on sharpness and for the most part determines edge longevity. The smoother the scratch pattern, ceteris paribus, the better the edge will be.

    ken

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafael Herrera View Post
    Warren,

    How about the medium and coarse India stones, are they more likely to need periodic maintenence?

    I have a combination crystolon stone and it needs lapping every few months.

    Also, how often does your Washita stone need maintenance?

    Wouldn't the sharpening technique used affect the likelihood of wearing the stone unevenly? What are the do and don'ts of free handing?
    Yes, in general the coarse oil stones are more vulnerable to wear.

    The Washita stone does wear. For about twenty five years I have used one side of my Washita for plane irons and wide chisels, and the other for gouges and narrow chisels. The result is that the one side has remained quite flat and the other is rather hollow, but it has not needed dressing because the gouges do not need such a flat surface.

    I use an 800 grit water stone for coarse work on plane irons and chisels. I let the tool overhang the edge of the stone so that the entire width of the stone gets worn. Managing the stone like this keeps the stone flat across the width (or a very little bit hollow, which is desirable). The stone tends to get hollow along the length, which has to be addressed occasionally, but is not as critical.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    Yes, in general the coarse oil stones are more vulnerable to wear.

    The Washita stone does wear. For about twenty five years I have used one side of my Washita for plane irons and wide chisels, and the other for gouges and narrow chisels. .
    Do you recommend "dressing" these stones to keep the cutting action fresh?
    My Lily White Arkie gets to cutting slow during heavier planing sessions.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    I used a fine India stone until I bought a Washita stone in 1977. The India stone was used over 100,000 times and never flattened or abraded. I measured the wear for the first time this morning. It was about .005 thinner in the middle than the ends. If it had been hollow from side to side it would have been a problem, but it was flat from side to side.

    My black Arkansas (1976) has never been abraded and is still 1.000 inches thick.

    Warren,
    I suppose if one's goal is to maintain a cheap India stone in pristine condition forever, then your method is a good strategy. On the other hand, if one wants a stone that works aggressively, then abrading it from time to time is a much better strategy.
    One of the interesting things that came out of David Weaver's micro-photographs on Wood Central was the comparison of scratch patterns from settled-in vs. freshly abraded oil stones. The evidence was quite clear: a freshly abraded stone creates a scratch pattern that is only slightly more coarse, but is also more uniform. In other words, there is little or no advantage to be gained from letting the stone settle in. On the other hand, there is a very clear advantage in cutting speed from a stone that is abraded occasionally.
    It's good to have firm convictions, but they ought to be malleable in the face of hard evidence. If you've never abraded your stones, how are you even in a position to say whether it's a good or bad method? I've experimented a great deal over the last decade or so with abrading oil stones frequently, occasionally, or not at all, and have found occasional abrading to be the most useful strategy. But as they say, "you do you."
    "For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Voigt View Post
    Warren,
    I suppose if one's goal is to maintain a cheap India stone in pristine condition forever, then your method is a good strategy. On the other hand, if one wants a stone that works aggressively, then abrading it from time to time is a much better strategy.
    One of the interesting things that came out of David Weaver's micro-photographs on Wood Central was the comparison of scratch patterns from settled-in vs. freshly abraded oil stones. The evidence was quite clear: a freshly abraded stone creates a scratch pattern that is only slightly more coarse, but is also more uniform. In other words, there is little or no advantage to be gained from letting the stone settle in. On the other hand, there is a very clear advantage in cutting speed from a stone that is abraded occasionally.
    It's good to have firm convictions, but they ought to be malleable in the face of hard evidence. If you've never abraded your stones, how are you even in a position to say whether it's a good or bad method? I've experimented a great deal over the last decade or so with abrading oil stones frequently, occasionally, or not at all, and have found occasional abrading to be the most useful strategy. But as they say, "you do you."
    Steve
    I don't believe warren said one way or the other to abrade or not. I also didn't read it as he was trying to convince anyone, to do anything lol. He literally was just stating his experience.

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