California to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2035

[Jim Matthews]

California might be better off finding a way to provide reliable electricity before it decides to mandate electric vehicles
Its not something you can do overnight, it takes decades to properly plan and build a reliable electrical service for that many people.

That's already happened, on a small scale.

"The Northern California utility “needs to do the things San Diego has done in the last 12 years since the Witch fire,” Wara said.

With federal and state funding, SDG&E started building a microgrid in 2012 in the desert community of Borrego Springs, several years after a wildfire took down the town’s single transmission line and cut off power for two days.

The system today uses a complex array of diesel generators, a solar farm, rooftop solar on many homes and lithium-ion batteries to allow the community to be “islanded” during systemwide outages. That means the microgrid can provide all the power the town of 3,500 needs for several hours at a time."

It's a rebirth of municipal utilities



https://www.latimes.com/business/la-...314-story.html

[Bill Dufour]

30 years ago there were often newspaper articles about families from southeast Asia who used a habachi grill and charcoal to heat the home at night. They would wake up in the morning and everyone would be dead.
Bil lD

[Mike Henderson]

30 years ago there were often newspaper articles about families from southeast Asia who used a habachi grill and charcoal to heat the home at night. They would wake up in the morning and everyone would be dead.
Bil lD

That's quite a trick

Mike

[I feel that way some mornings.]

[Mike Soaper]

so that's how zombies are created?

[Alex Zeller]

California is entering a world of hurt. The plan is that during the day solar is going to provide the power and during the evening all those electric cars that are plugged in will provide power to the grid. That's their way of getting around the power grid and it's problems. Of course this will only work if you can charge your car during the day (most people work so companies will have to install charging stations) and plug it in. Would you plug your car into the grid if it didn't need charging if you knew that your 85% charge could be 25% in the morning? If I lived in the state I would be getting a good sized battery. Done right there's nothing wrong with advancements in technology. But done in an action like a dictator, where the science and figuring out how to make it happen is a second thought, it'll cause plenty of pain. This order also impacts things like off road vehicles like dirt bikes.

I wonder what the people living up in the mountains think of this? They are usually an afterthought (if thought about at all). A battery powered snow blower may be fine when you get 4" or so of snow but where it's measured in feet and how wet it is things are different. That applies to a pickup with a plow on it. It's nothing to go through a tank of gas plowing customers during a storm. Having to stop for hours to charge up the battery isn't always an option. Around here we can get more than 2' of snow and plow guys will start early and continue to plow to stay ahead of it.

OTOH those who commute to work and spend most of their drive in stop and go traffic would be a great place for an EV. Done right a transition away from fossil fuels is viable. Newsom didn't even address the problems with hydrogen. Right now it comes from natural gas. A move to splitting fresh water is not viable in California since they are already struggling with power and lack of water. Salt water could be used but it's still in the research phase. it could be 5 years or maybe 50 years before it's viable (if ever). Is hydrogen from NG going to be exempt? It produces lots of green house gasses.

[Keith Outten]

Alex, your kidding right?

Surely they are not planning to use people's electric cars to put power on the grid at night. Don't most people want to charge their vehicles at night.
This is so funny its almost believable that a state on the shaky side would try it

[Jim Matthews]

California is entering a world of hurt. The plan is that during the day solar is going to provide the power and during the evening all those electric cars that are plugged in will provide power to the grid.

Do you have a source describing this plan?

[Lee DeRaud]

Well, at least California can rely on the near-infinite supply of people on the east coast telling us what we're doing wrong.

[Brian Elfert]

With federal and state funding, SDG&E started building a microgrid in 2012 in the desert community of Borrego Springs, several years after a wildfire took down the town’s single transmission line and cut off power for two days.

The system today uses a complex array of diesel generators, a solar farm, rooftop solar on many homes and lithium-ion batteries to allow the community to be “islanded” during systemwide outages. That means the microgrid can provide all the power the town of 3,500 needs for several hours at a time."

It's a rebirth of municipal utilities

It would get very expensive if every city had to spend ten million or more on a microgrid that is only used if the main grid is down. The article doesn't state what the cost was other than to say they got a $5 million grant for expansion so my guess is over $10 million has been spent to date.

Municipal utilities are generally connected to the main grid if they have access to the main grid. A lot of municipal utilities don't even generate any electricity and buy it all from the grid. There are villages in Alaska with no roads that have diesel generators supplying power to the village. The cost per KWh has to be sky high as diesel is easily $5 per gallon since it has to come in via barge.

[Alex Zeller]

Back in 2016 (I think) the air force base in LA switched to all EVs and started the concept of using the battery in the EV to send power to the grid. So the technology is there. Then EV companies jumped on it to promote sales. Just think. If the power goes out you can use the battery in your car to power your house. Sounds great until you think about it. What's to stop your charging station from doing the same thing and sending the power back into the grid? Look up V2G technology. The next step will be the government not giving you an option about whether or not you want to sell your power back to the grid.

Until this year I would of said it's very unlikely but between the virus and Newsom's order I would expect it'll happen. I'm not usually this type of person but all the pieces are in place. Tesla cars get over the air updates so it's not hard to have a system that tells the government how much charge your car has. It's coming for highway taxes. As gas sales drop road repair money will need to come from somewhere. Either it'll be a flat tax or it'll be the government tracking your mileage (which most states do when you get your car's yearly inspection). The next step is for your car to just upload the mileage and GPS location (including where you drove). That could mean warnings for people who do not plug your car into the grid and eventually fines. The part of me resists this because it makes me feel less free. But a part of me sees it as the future.

[Roger Feeley]

Plug Power has been around for decades, and is one of the reasons I am skeptical of the idea that futuristic technology will allow us to have a carbon free future without compromising anyone's quality of life.

Anybody who was around Albany in the late 90s knew about Plug Power. They had a demonstration house that ran on fuel cells, the governor was talking them up, the stock was skyrocketing, incredible breakthroughs were just around the corner, and everybody seemed to know somebody who worked there or was invested in it.

Twenty years later I don't think they have ever made a profit, and the incredible breakthroughs are still just around the corner.

Nicholas, It's my understanding that they got themselves a new CEO and the guy cracked the nut. Instead of trying to sell to consumers (homes and cars), they realized that they could start with forklifts. They have no shortage of customers but now they need hydrogen and hydrogen doesn't transport all that well. You need to make it close to the point of use.

[Mike Henderson]

Back in 2016 (I think) the air force base in LA switched to all EVs and started the concept of using the battery in the EV to send power to the grid. So the technology is there. Then EV companies jumped on it to promote sales. Just think. If the power goes out you can use the battery in your car to power your house. Sounds great until you think about it. What's to stop your charging station from doing the same thing and sending the power back into the grid? Look up V2G technology. The next step will be the government not giving you an option about whether or not you want to sell your power back to the grid.

Until this year I would of said it's very unlikely but between the virus and Newsom's order I would expect it'll happen. I'm not usually this type of person but all the pieces are in place. Tesla cars get over the air updates so it's not hard to have a system that tells the government how much charge your car has. It's coming for highway taxes. As gas sales drop road repair money will need to come from somewhere. Either it'll be a flat tax or it'll be the government tracking your mileage (which most states do when you get your car's yearly inspection). The next step is for your car to just upload the mileage and GPS location (including where you drove). That could mean warnings for people who do not plug your car into the grid and eventually fines. The part of me resists this because it makes me feel less free. But a part of me sees it as the future.

The idea of using the battery in your car to power your house during a power failure is a good idea - if you want to do that. You may need your car for transportation so you might decide not to do that.

There's also a way to make a bit of money by charging your car during the day when rates are low and then using your car to put power back on the grid at higher rates. But again, it would be up to you whether you want to do that.

There has to be money for building and repairing roads and bridges so owners of electric vehicles will have to pay their share. That could be based on the number of miles driven, or there might be other ways of doing it. But EV drivers will have to pay their share.

I'm not sure why these ideas seem to bother you.

Mike

[Nicholas Lawrence]

The idea of using the battery in your car to power your house during a power failure is a good idea - if you want to do that. You may need your car for transportation so you might decide not to do that.

There's also a way to make a bit of money by charging your car during the day when rates are low and then using your car to put power back on the grid at higher rates. But again, it would be up to you whether you want to do that.

There has to be money for building and repairing roads and bridges so owners of electric vehicles will have to pay their share. That could be based on the number of miles driven, or there might be other ways of doing it. But EV drivers will have to pay their share.

I'm not sure why these ideas seem to bother you.

Mike

I could be wrong, but I have the impression you are looking at discharging the battery to the grid as a voluntary thing to make money on the side, and he is looking at it as something the government someday perhaps just does whether you consent or not.

Roger, regarding Plug Power, just be careful if you are investing. I started following them in the late 90s because so many blue collar guys who worked there were very excited about the technology and investing heavily themselves. The stock back then was in the $70s.

Unless I am misreading the data, over 20 years they have never reported a profit. They did report a quarterly profit once, in 2014.

[Mike Henderson]

I could be wrong, but I have the impression you are looking at discharging the battery to the grid as a voluntary thing to make money on the side, and he is looking at it as something the government someday perhaps just does whether you consent or not. .

There's no way the government could force you to do such a thing. They don't have the right to do such a thing and you could always unplug your car. People have to have a working vehicle. Do you really think you could be forced to drain your battery dry and immobilize your car? Do you think people would stand for that?

That's conspiracy thinking.

Mike

[Jim Matthews]

Well, at least California can rely on the near-infinite supply of people on the east coast telling us what we're doing wrong.

I heard you heretics put Salsa on hotdogs.