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Thread: California to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2035

  1. #181
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    I think the mega chargers are not for cars. Probably melt the battery in a minute or less.
    Bil lD.

  2. #182
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    Guess what? Not only are electric cars better for the environment, they are the fastest 0 to 60 mph. Maybe the California governor is actually a secret super performance car fan.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRBAFlhMP8A

  3. #183
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    Electric motors have amazing torgue which can really move vehicles "off the line". That was one of the things I loved about the hybrids we drove for awhile. Zero hesitation when the skinny pedal went to the floor to get out of our driveway and not get hit by a stone truck or something.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #184
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    Search our archives we have a Member who built and raced a battery powered dragster.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    The idea of using the battery in your car to power your house during a power failure is a good idea - if you want to do that. You may need your car for transportation so you might decide not to do that.

    Mike
    Living in sunny Florida, and having a Tesla and a solar array that consistently produces a surplus that we send to the utility, I think about that a lot.

    Hurricanes are a real issue here, and we have to prepare for them most years, and will almost certainly lose power when one comes (been there). Sadly, our utility lines are overhead, and surrounded by 100+ year old oak trees.

    Duke Energy (our utility) mandates that our solar array automatically disconnect when the grid goes down. So I have this huge solar array, and it's useless as they don't allow islanding. If only there was this $10 device called a contactor that could eliminate the risk. If only..... And, of course, it already has one connected to the array.

    There is net billing here, and no time-of-day surcharges, so battery backups like the Tesla Powerwall make zero economic sense right now. If that changes, I'll get one in a second, but that's $20K. Of course, the utility charges you $0.13/kWh for electricity you use, but only pays you $0.03/kWh for surplus, so that's a major ripoff. But I digress..

    A few years ago I heard that Tesla was going to allow/provide a setup where your car's battery could provide power to your house in case of a blackout, and be charged by the solar array. I was thrilled to hear that. Never happened. Would have gotten it.

    As far as using your electric car in a blackout - not going to happen. Imagine being stuck in a traffic jam fleeing the area, with no superchargers nearby, or potentially working.

    As I've told friends, I finally figured out what use my Tesla would be in a hurricane. It's the world's most expensive iPhone charger.
    Last edited by Alan Lightstone; 10-24-2020 at 10:22 AM.
    - I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun. Sigh...
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off.
    - When you earnestly believe you can compensate for lack of skill by doubling your effort, there's no end to what you can't do

  6. #186
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    Note that unless they have a backup generator, gas stations can't pump gas during a blackout so if your car is out of fuel or battery charge in a blackout you're stuck either way.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lightstone View Post
    Living in sunny Florida, and having a Tesla and a solar array that consistently produces a surplus that we send to the utility, I think about that a lot.

    Hurricanes are a real issue here, and we have to prepare for them most years, and will almost certainly lose power when one comes (been there). Sadly, our utility lines are overhead, and surrounded by 100+ year old oak trees.

    Duke Energy (our utility) mandates that our solar array automatically disconnect when the grid goes down. So I have this huge solar array, and it's useless as they don't allow islanding. If only there was this $10 device called a contactor that could eliminate the risk. If only..... And, of course, it already has one connected to the array.

    There is net billing here, and no time-of-day surcharges, so battery backups like the Tesla Powerwall make zero economic sense right now. If that changes, I'll get one in a second, but that's $20K. Of course, the utility charges you $0.13/kWh for electricity you use, but only pays you $0.03/kWh for surplus, so that's a major ripoff. But I digress..

    A few years ago I heard that Tesla was going to allow/provide a setup where your car's battery could provide power to your house in case of a blackout, and be charged by the solar array. I was thrilled to hear that. Never happened. Would have gotten it.

    As far as using your electric car in a blackout - not going to happen. Imagine being stuck in a traffic jam fleeing the area, with no superchargers nearby, or potentially working.

    As I've told friends, I finally figured out what use my Tesla would be in a hurricane. It's the world's most expensive iPhone charger.
    There are a couple of issues with using your solar array when power from the grid fails:

    1. If your array is connected to the grid, and operating, it will be delivering voltage to the transformer that supplies your house and that transformer will be stepping up the voltage to the transmission voltage - maybe 44K Volts - on the wires that feed power to your neighborhood. That can kill someone working to restore power - or even someone walking in the area who encounters a fallen power cable. The same is true of people who have backup generators - those must be used with a transfer switch that removes the generator and house from the grid while the generator is in operation.

    2. Let's say that you isolate your house and solar from the grid and the solar operates to supply power to your home. The problem is that there's no buffer in the system. In normal operation when you're connected to the grid and your solar is providing power, shortages of power from your solar (such as when a cloud goes over) are made up by taking power from the grid. Without that, the voltage to your house would fall and most of your appliances would quit. So you need something - a battery or a generator - to make up these droops in the supply. Your electric car could provide that buffer rather than paying for batteries in your house. You'd have to manage the use so that you don't deplete the charge in your car and leave you without transportation. And by trading off electricity use in your home during a power failure, you could even charge your car. The disadvantage is that when you use your car to go somewhere during the power failure you also lose power in your home. But you may be willing to make that tradeoff for the cost saving of not having batteries in your home.

    I expect that electric vehicles are not designed and programmed to do this today but it is technically possible.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lightstone View Post
    Living in sunny Florida, and having a Tesla and a solar array that consistently produces a surplus that we send to the utility, I think about that a lot.

    Hurricanes are a real issue here, and we have to prepare for them most years, and will almost certainly lose power when one comes (been there). Sadly, our utility lines are overhead, and surrounded by 100+ year old oak trees.
    I have an LG battery backup operating as a generator.
    It's on a transfer switch. I get about 10 hours run time if all our systems (including furnace) run constantly.

    It lasts longer if I can keep my doofus teenagers out of the refrigerator when the power is out.

    I expect that if Florida's transmission lines become unstable, that $20k battery installation and grid disconnections will become common.

    Dunno where the breakpoint is, but it's somewhere between overnight and Puerto Rico's recovery from Maria. Imagine 3 months, with no AC and limited gas/natural gas/propane supplies for your generator.

    Nissan has retrofitted their popular Leaf as a portable generator and recovery vehicle.

    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/n...gency-vehicle/



    https://www.energysage.com/solar/sol...atteries-cost/
    Last edited by Jim Matthews; 10-24-2020 at 11:37 PM.

  9. #189
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    Interesting, Mike. The cutoff to prevent electrocuting linemen is already built into the system. So that already exists, and not letting electricity go to the house then is an excuse. If required to additionally need a transfer switch, there are already two built into the system. There simply doesn't seem to be any extra hardware that I require. I absolutely agree that serious protection needs to be built into the system. My point is that it already is there.

    Your second point is very interesting. I agree that the car's battery could work as a buffer in case of clouds / night. I have set up my circuit breakers so that only 1/2 of the house would run during a blackout. A lesson you learn living in hurricane country is that all you need to stay in your house is 1 room with power and A/C, and a working refrigerator/freezer. You don't need to cool the entire house.

    As I have two separate HVAC units (one on each floor), we would need 1 floor to have A/C - the same floor as the kitchen so fridge/freezer there too. I actually have energy monitoring circuitry built into that breaker panel, so I know how much each circuit / appliance uses. It is less than half the output of my solar panels, so clearly could work most daylight hours. Nighttime, you're on your own, or using the car battery, but keeping the fridge and freezer closed would work. HVAC - could get pretty toasty by morning if the car ran out of juice. I was setup to buy two Powerwalls, and if my solar company hadn't dropped the ball, I'd already have two. But I don't.

    But my Tesla battery (85kWh) is the equivalent of 6 Powerwalls. Newer ones are the equivalent of >7 Powerwalls.
    Easily enough to get through the night, then charge in daytime. My typical summer days I produce 135kWh. I do have an ICE car, which I would use and not use the Tesla during a blackout, so fortunately I could avoid that scenario.

    My long-winded point here is that it really should be possible to do this, in a safe manner, making my environment safer after a hurricane / power failure. But it presently isn't. It should be allowable to go off the grid here. But it isn't.

    Thanks for your interesting insights, Mike. Raised some additional points I hadn't thought of. I appreciate that.
    - I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun. Sigh...
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off.
    - When you earnestly believe you can compensate for lack of skill by doubling your effort, there's no end to what you can't do

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Garson View Post
    Note that unless they have a backup generator, gas stations can't pump gas during a blackout so if your car is out of fuel or battery charge in a blackout you're stuck either way.
    After the 4 hurricanes in Florida in 2004 they passed a law requiring gas stations to get generators. Out of interest, I would always look for them when driving. Only 1 gas station near here had one. They've since closed. At least here, the law has been ignored. So, good luck getting gas if the big one hits.
    - I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun. Sigh...
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off.
    - When you earnestly believe you can compensate for lack of skill by doubling your effort, there's no end to what you can't do

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    and house from the The problem is that there's no buffer in the system. In normal operation when you're connected to the grid and your solar is providing power, shortages of power from your solar (such as when a cloud goes over) are made up by taking power from the grid. Without that, the voltage to your house would fall and most of your appliances would quit. So you need something - a battery or a generator - to make up these droops in the supply. Your electric car could provide that buffer rather than paying for batteries in your house. You'd have to manage the use so that you don't deplete the charge in your car and leave you without transportation. And by trading off electricity use in your home during a power failure, you could even charge your car. The disadvantage is that when you use your car to go somewhere during the power failure you also lose power in your home. But you may be willing to make that tradeoff for the cost saving of not having batteries in your home.

    I expect that electric vehicles are not designed and programmed to do this today but it is technically possible.

    Mike
    The regulatory environment constrains this in the US.
    There are pilot examples operating in Australia, today.

    These require a sophisticated line monitor and robust transfer switching, but it is possible - with off the shelf gear. It's really a question of distributed or centralized power generation.

    Not cheap - but more fault tolerant.

    Here's the TV program that got me to consider this.


    https://joshshouse.com.au/

  12. #192
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    The whole shut down of solar during a power outage is silly to me. I have this huge solar array and can't use it when the power is out? My understanding is grid-tie solar inverters are less expensive because they can match up with the grid for generating 60 hertz power. Solar inverters that work with a battery bank are way more expensive.

    The power company had to come out and check out my solar system before I could turn it on. The only thing they really cared about is that it quit making power when disconnected from the grid.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Elfert View Post
    The whole shut down of solar during a power outage is silly to me. I have this huge solar array and can't use it when the power is out? My understanding is grid-tie solar inverters are less expensive because they can match up with the grid for generating 60 hertz power. Solar inverters that work with a battery bank are way more expensive.

    The power company had to come out and check out my solar system before I could turn it on. The only thing they really cared about is that it quit making power when disconnected from the grid.
    Brian:

    How does you solar system work in the winter with all the snow you must get up there? Do you have to actively get snow off them?
    - I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun. Sigh...
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off.
    - When you earnestly believe you can compensate for lack of skill by doubling your effort, there's no end to what you can't do

  14. #194
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    This thread got me thinking about the math a little differently regarding my solar array and a battery system like the Tesla Powerwall. If I actually did get two installed, and used them every night to power the house, in theory I would not use 1907 Kwh of electricity from the grid every month. I would avoid their rate of $0.13/KwH for that, so saving $248/mo for that.

    But wait.... Not so simple. Let's cut that in half, because I can only power half the house off the grid with two Powerwalls, so down to saving $124/month. My average surplus is 2414 KwH/month to the grid, but again lets take off 90 KwH to charge the Powerwalls every day. So down to a surplus every month of 2324 KwH /month.

    Half of the house (where we typically sleep and work at night) is in the part of the house that wouldn't be covered by the Powerwalls. Assuming that we use 1/3 of our daily energy at night, for 1/2 of the house, we would have to get about 620 KwH/month from the grid at night no matter what. So now we're down to a surplus of 1704 KwH/month to the utility.

    Duke Energy charges you $10.90/month just to bill you and for you to be a customer. Oh joy. That equals 84 KwH, so have to subtract that too. Down to 1620 KwH/month of surplus to Duke Energy.

    So summarizing the economics here, at their rate of paying you back of only $0.0325/KwH, they would pay me back $52.65/month if I bought two Tesla Powerwalls. Payback for the purchase would take 32 years. And since, with discharging them every night, they would probably last 10 years, buying them for economic reasons is pure folly.

    I'm sure I screwed up one or more or all of my assumptions above, but at least for now, no Tesla Powerwalls in my future.
    - I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun. Sigh...
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off.
    - When you earnestly believe you can compensate for lack of skill by doubling your effort, there's no end to what you can't do

  15. At the price of non-internal combustion cars, there's going to be a great many pedestrians out there.

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