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Thread: California to ban internal combustion engine cars by 2035

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dufour View Post
    Polaris bought a Swedish electric truck maker several years ago. I am still waiting for the electric snow mobile or quad.
    Bil lD
    https://www.atv.com/products/electri...uide-1625.html

    https://ranger.polaris.com/en-us/ranger-ev/

    “The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed." ― William Gibson

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee DeRaud View Post
    Ok, I'll bite: why would you deliberately do something that, um, non-optimal?
    (I'm trying hard to be polite here, but it's just not working...)
    Because the initial plan was to get a Powerwall for a power outage (most likely in a hurricane, but our power was out earlier this month for 4 hours for whatever happened with the grid). Three floors in the house, but the kitchen and guest bedroom on one floor. This would be using only one, not two HVAC units. That one floor is where we would live off the batteries if power went out. Plus, no elevator, and no desire to be climbing 4 stories up and down without power.

    It sounds suboptimal on the surface, but I lot of thought went into which loads are on that one panel, which we then had an electrician make happen.

    If we setup the house to have both floors, both AC units using the Powerwall, it would take four Powerwalls - $44K.
    - I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun. Sigh...
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off.
    - When you earnestly believe you can compensate for lack of skill by doubling your effort, there's no end to what you can't do

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Matthews View Post
    My car costs me $250 per month, and I could buy it outright for $25,000.

    At $ .22 per KWH each mile costs me about $ .05.

    At $ 2.00 per gallon, each mile costs about $.08.

    15,000 miles at $.05 = $750 for a year

    15,000 miles at $.08 = $1200 for a year.

    That doesn't include oil changes, belts, etc.

    It's not out of reach, today and prices are coming down. https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/2...v-cost-tabless
    My numbers come out even better here in Florida, as electricity is cheaper than what you quoted.

    At $0.13/KwH each mile costs me about $0.04 (I must be driving my car faster, I use about 330 watts / mile.)

    At $2.94/gallon (premium for my ICE car), each mile costs me about $0.15

    15,000 miles at $0.04 = $600 for a year
    15,000 at $0.15 = $2,250 for a year.

    That being said, no way my Tesla would at $135K ever pay for itself with gas savings. Not having to need tune-ups helps - most years my only expense is tires. Or the occasional 12V battery replacement.

    Much of the problem with electric cars is having enough infrastructure to charge them. Tesla has done far better than other manufacturers and has a several year lead in this. Owning one, you do think differently than with an ICE car. You frequently think about how much charge you have left. It just goes with the territory. Even if there is a supercharger nearby, it might take an hour to charge the car instead of 5 min at a gas station for an ICE car. Like I said, you just think and plan differently owning one.

    Also, how the electricity is generated for the car makes all the difference in the world about preventing pollution. Using a coal-fired plant to produce the electricity for an electric car, well ...
    - I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun. Sigh...
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off.
    - When you earnestly believe you can compensate for lack of skill by doubling your effort, there's no end to what you can't do

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lightstone View Post
    Also, how the electricity is generated for the car makes all the difference in the world about preventing pollution. Using a coal-fired plant to produce the electricity for an electric car, well ...
    The efficient usage of power (burning electrons or dinosaur bones) makes a difference in CO2 output.

    Electric cars still lead on the emissions front, when every stage of refining fuel is tabulated.

    The lack of tailpipe emissions means you can improve that further, by further "scrubbing" smokestack effluent.

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/factchec...climate-change

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Matthews View Post
    The efficient usage of power (burning electrons or dinosaur bones) makes a difference in CO2 output.

    Electric cars still lead on the emissions front, when every stage of refining fuel is tabulated.

    The lack of tailpipe emissions means you can improve that further, by further "scrubbing" smokestack effluent.

    https://www.carbonbrief.org/factchec...climate-change
    Agreed, while the best solution in most locations is to eliminate using fossil fuels to generate electricity, in some locations it is not practical yet but even in those cases, more can be done to reduce GHG emissions in a central power plant than in thousands of tail pipes.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lightstone View Post
    How does you solar system work in the winter with all the snow you must get up there? Do you have to actively get snow off them?
    I had both a roof mount and a ground mount until recently. They have both been removed and I am moving my solar to a new location that will be ground mount only. I hope to have the panels back online before the weather really gets bad this year.

    Anyhow, the roof mount panels will have about two months of basically zero production over the winter due to snow cover. The eight hours of sun and the low sun angle means production is really low for the roof at that time of year anyhow. I will clean off the ground mount if there is a few inches or more of snow. Small snowfalls will melt off the ground mount panels due to the black frames and the steep angle of the panels. Last year I produced more than I used for the year and got a $400 check from the power company.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Matthews View Post
    My car costs me $250 per month, and I could buy it outright for $25,000.
    Are you buying or leasing for that kind of payment? If you are buying you probably didn't take out a $25,000 loan on the car for $250 a month. $25,000 at 0% interest would take 100 months to pay off at $250 per month.

  8. #218
    I was in Germany a couple of years ago and was amazed at the amount of solar installed there. They're situated about even with Canada and get a lot of snow. But every farm, house, etc. had solar panels.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  9. #219
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    I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there is a major auto manufacturer in the world without at least one full electric or plug in hybrid car in their lineup or at least in late development. Some, like Volvo, have announced dates to phase out production of gas and diesel engines before 2035, Toyota's date is 2040, Daimler won't develop any new gas engines after 2026 .
    Here's an interesting quote "As Daimler says: The car will change more in the next ten years than in the 100 years before. Engineers are working every day to improve electric drives and are also looking for technically even better alternatives every day. The exit from the combustion engine development is a clear signal for the development and not for the end of the car."

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Elfert View Post
    Are you buying or leasing for that kind of payment? If you are buying you probably didn't take out a $25,000 loan on the car for $250 a month. $25,000 at 0% interest would take 100 months to pay off at $250 per month.
    Leasing at $250/month total of $6000.

    Residual value (50%) pegged at $20,000.

    I could buy it outright but I expect there will be more refined choices by the end of the lease term.

    I'm hopeful that VW makes an electric bus affordable.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Matthews View Post
    The efficient usage of power (burning electrons or dinosaur bones) makes a difference in CO2 output.

    Electric cars still lead on the emissions front, when every stage of refining fuel is tabulated.
    I was just thinking something similar. How many gallons of gasoline does it take to run the generate to recharge a Tesla one time?

    Then there are the losses to consider. Fuel is consumed to make heat (loss) to make steam (loss) to turn a turbine (loss) to make electricity that travels over power lines (loss) through transformers (loss, though they are usually 99+% efficient) to the charging station converted into the power to charge the car (loss). Or you could put the fuel straight into your car (one loss).

  12. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Whitesell View Post
    I was just thinking something similar. How many gallons of gasoline does it take to run the generate to recharge a Tesla one time?

    Then there are the losses to consider. Fuel is consumed to make heat (loss) to make steam (loss) to turn a turbine (loss) to make electricity that travels over power lines (loss) through transformers (loss, though they are usually 99+% efficient) to the charging station converted into the power to charge the car (loss). Or you could put the fuel straight into your car (one loss).
    Of course, the goal is to have the electricity generated by wind or solar. The transmission loss for electricity is about 5%. A battery can return perhaps 95% of the energy used to charge it and an efficient electric motor can be perhaps 85 to 90% efficient.

    The problem with an ICE is that they are very inefficient, about 20% to perhaps a maximum of 35%.

    Looking at this a different way, let's suppose that we start with 100 units of energy. The electric car will have about 76 units of energy coming out of the motor.

    The ICE will have between 20 and 35 units of energy out of the motor. The problem with ICEs is the energy loss to heat.

    Mike

    [Fuel cell cars - run on hydrogen - are not very efficient when you look at the entire energy chain. Again, assuming electricity from wind and solar, the energy in the hydrogen from electrolysis of water is about 70% of the electricity used to generate the hydrogen. Transportation of hydrogen is expensive so let's assume that hydrogen is made at the filling station. A hydrogen fuel cell is perhaps 50 to 60% efficient. The electricity from the fuel cell is put into a motor that is 85 to 90% efficient.

    If we start with 100 units of energy, we wind up with about 30 units of energy out of the motor. And that's without considering any transportation costs for the hydrogen, or the cost to compress the hydrogen for use in the car.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 10-29-2020 at 7:30 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    Of course, the goal is to have the electricity generated by wind or solar.

    Mike
    And of course is the issue of how to deliver electricity when it is cloudy, nighttime, or the wind isn't blowing. This is where large battery arrays like what Tesla Energy delivered to South Australia are vital. And not cheap. That particular installation is a 129MwH battery pack.

    https://electrek.co/2018/05/11/tesla...-service-cost/
    - I have enough frequent flyer miles to orbit the sun. Sigh...
    - After I ask a stranger if I can pet their dog and they say yes, I like to respond, "I'll keep that in mind" and walk off.
    - When you earnestly believe you can compensate for lack of skill by doubling your effort, there's no end to what you can't do

  14. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lightstone View Post
    And of course is the issue of how to deliver electricity when it is cloudy, nighttime, or the wind isn't blowing. This is where large battery arrays like what Tesla Energy delivered to South Australia are vital. And not cheap. That particular installation is a 129MwH battery pack.

    https://electrek.co/2018/05/11/tesla...-service-cost/
    There's a lot of work going on for storing electricity in the grid. One old technique is to pump water into an upper reservoir and then use that water to generate electricity (hydro power) when needed. That technique goes back many years. More modern techniques are grid scale batteries.

    But one thing I know is that we (as a society) will find ways to store electricity in the grid - at least to the point were fossil fuel generators are only used for emergencies.

    In not too many years the vast majority of our electricity will come from renewable sources.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    In not too many years the vast majority of our electricity will come from renewable sources.

    Mike
    Some countries are already there, Canada, 67% renewable and 82% non GHG emitting sources. According to data compiled by the U.S. Energy Information Administration, there are seven countries already at, or very, near 100 percent renewable power: Iceland (100 percent), Paraguay (100), Costa Rica (99), Norway (98.5), Austria (80), Brazil (75), and Denmark (69.4). The main renewables in these countries are hydropower, wind, geothermal, and solar.
    https://www.resilience.org/stories/2...ady-happening/

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