Tell me about Natural Gas and new furnace

[Rick Potter]

Just general info, that might help someone:

Our house has always had NG. Tract suburban home (1979) with gas heat, water and stove.

Since we moved in, we have added on a couple times, and the house now has three water heaters, two furnaces, BBQ and a gas fireplace insert.

I began to wonder if the old gas main and meter was adequate for more than double it's original capacity. I finally called the gas company to check it out. They said the main was adequate, but installed a new meter with four times the capacity.

Amazingly, it cost me nothing, and they did it within a week.

[Jerome Stanek]

The downside to that kind of thing, especially for a 40 year old system, is that it's unlikely that anything close to current efficiency would be obtained. Current high-efficiency gas furnaces are uber stingy with fuel usage and are better for emissions, too.

My converted oil furnace used less gas then the 90% furnace I have now. I think it just had a better heat exchanger and I could adjust the input on it from 10,000 to 200,000 BTUs i was running it at 30,000 and it handled even the coldest days. I now use an unvented heater for my main heat that is 99% efficient..I sish I never changed

[Bill Dufour]

Is a unvented heater legal in your state? They are not legal here due to carbon monoxide deaths. I would think a unvented heater would be bad for the shop with all the water it pumps into the air. Roughly one pound of water for one pound of fuel burned.
Bil lD

[Jerry Bruette]

I just called the gas company. There is a $35 to $40 minimum monthly charge if I use the gas that month or not. I can have it turned off in the summer months for a reconnect fee of $17.
Any idea the cost difference running a water heater on gas vs electric? A gas water heater will cost me at least $35 a month.

From what I can tell by looking at the Menard's website electric will cost about $35 a month to operate, but may cost more to purchase. Don't forget about maintenance, if you have hard water you may have to replace your elements in the electric unit periodically. Hard water doesn't affect the burner in a gas unit but it should be flushed at least once a year.

Do you have forced air or hot water heat? If you have hot water heat I'd recommend a indirect fired water heater. They cost more but you only buy them once and no maintenance.

[Ronald Blue]

My converted oil furnace used less gas then the 90% furnace I have now. I think it just had a better heat exchanger and I could adjust the input on it from 10,000 to 200,000 BTUs i was running it at 30,000 and it handled even the coldest days. I now use an unvented heater for my main heat that is 99% efficient..I sish I never changed

I'd be finding out what's wrong with your new furnace then. An old conversion furnace would never come close if things are working correctly. Old furnaces worked on a completely different heating model. No blower until the heat exchanger hit a high temperature. I'm thinking 140 or more for some reason. Modern furnaces have almost instantaneous blower activation. The current furnace I have and the previous one in my old home are variable btu output. Run at like half the maximum output and if after so many minutes if the temperature hasn't been attained it kicks in full burner output. My old workshop had an 80% efficient furnace. Still had a conventional flue, a combustion blower as well, but no pilot light.

[Dave Lehnert]

Some more info.

I talked with the HVAC salesman today. Without coming out he gave ballpark figures (said they were worse case prices. likley be cheaper)
He gave me a price range of $6,500 for 80% efficient to high of $10,500 for 98.5% efficient Modulating furnace.
How efficient do i need and do I need Modulating unit?

[Jim Becker]

I don't think we can tell you want to choose, per se, as the decision is a combination of budget and the degree of your interest in using less of the natural gas resources over time as well as reduced emissions. How long you intend to remain in the property and the decisions impact on resale also can factor in. Me...I'd put in the 98.5% system. I was talked into a less efficient 80-85% unit when our addition went on in 2008 and am not happy I made that decision now as this household is philosophically bent toward using as little energy resource as possible...IE practicing what we preach. When the other system in the older portion of our home needed to be replaced in 2011 after all the appliances were destroyed by water due to a sump pump failure during a hurricane, we went 90% with PCV vent and inlet. The cost difference wasn't all that much, either. Same brand (Amana) and same contractor.

[Ronald Blue]

I realize you're ina large city but wow that's high in my opinion. I put in a 97% efficient furnace and central air unit 2 years ago and it was only $8800 and that was the duct work too. (New Construction) I'd get several quotes. That might be the going rate but there isn't a $4000 spread between the units I assure you. Here is a link to HD for reference. As Jim says only you can decide what to get. What size are they recommending? I removed the "H" to hopefully make the link dead.

omedepot.com/b/Heating-Venting-Cooling-Heaters-Forced-Air-Furnaces/Natural-Gas/N-5yc1vZc4lkZ1z10n1h

[Ron Selzer]

Work in maintenance dept with 2 guys who install and service Furnaces and A/C units on the side. Both say to stay away from high efficient furnaces as the maintenance/repair bill will eat up all cost savings plus the higher installed cost. A lot of markup in this field, not uncommon at all to see 6-8k over installed cost on up to 10-16k all depending on contractor.
Shop wisely and make sure who installs it will be there to repair/maintain it.
Ron

[Jerry Bruette]

Work in maintenance dept with 2 guys who install and service Furnaces and A/C units on the side. Both say to stay away from high efficient furnaces as the maintenance/repair bill will eat up all cost savings plus the higher installed cost. A lot of markup in this field, not uncommon at all to see 6-8k over installed cost on up to 10-16k all depending on contractor.
Shop wisely and make sure who installs it will be there to repair/maintain it.
Ron

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HVAC tech at work used to work for independent heating contractor. Told me the same thing. He said the factory trainers told the techs that all that was being saved was fossil fuels. Any money you think you're saving with higher efficiency will be eaten up in repair costs. Check the online reviews of what goes bad (fans) and what the repair costs are. All the reviews I read also warned about improperly trained installers that would void warranties with improper installations.

[Rick Potter]

Jerome,

Please tell me that remark about the UNVENTED natural gas heater is a typo. Being a fireman for a major fire dept. for over 30 years, I removed far too many bodies from situations like this.

[Ronald Blue]

I call BS on the high maintenance costs. After 14 years with the previous home and one service call for a failed ignitor and nothing else where is the high priced maintenance issues? This was a 3 year old home when we purchased it Two years in on my new home and no problems. What causes high costs is incompetent service people who can't diagnose and repair so they throw parts at a problem. My highest gas build are only in the $50 dollar range. We do get sub zero winter temps so it's not because of a mild climate.

[Jerome Stanek]

Jerome,

Please tell me that remark about the UNVENTED natural gas heater is a typo. Being a fireman for a major fire dept. for over 30 years, I removed far too many bodies from situations like this.

The unit I have has a sensor that will shut down the unit if the CO gets to high. There are more deaths here from faulty furnace then unvented heaters. I also have co detectors throughout the house.

[Larry Frank]

About four years ago, I put in a high efficiency furnace and air conditioning with extra duct work. The original duct work was too small to get to certain parts of the house. The bill was about ten grand and worth it. My heating and air conditioning bills went down significantly and the house more comfortable.

[roger wiegand]

Those prices seem reasonable for our region. There's a big bump in both complexity and cost going from the 95% units to the 98.5% units; I'm not sure your money isn't better spent elsewhere in terms of energy conservation. That money will buy a lot of insulation and air sealing.

We did the full deep energy retrofit on our house and our heating bills are only a few hundred dollars a season (in MA) with a 95% furnace.

Repairs on more sophisticated equipment can be steep, and also problematic. The main motor on our Carrier furnace went out just as the warranty ended and the replacement part was over $700. But wait-- they were out of stock on the part in North America and were quoting four months delivery time from China. A few animated conversations with higher levels of management reminded them that there were alternatives such as air freight to keep their customers from freezing and we managed to get the part in about 10 days.