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Thread: Compatibility of Heritage Natural Original and Zar gel stain

  1. #1

    Compatibility of Heritage Natural Original and Zar gel stain

    I chose stain grade pine trim for my new shop and used the same oil-based finish that I used on the oak beams. The problem is that the color of the trim does not match the beams.

    D46CA31A-3C2F-4BE2-8323-482337C430AB.jpg

    I understand that the trim will darken a bit over time, but I thought I would try some stain I had on hand to even out the color. I have some Zar gel, in Modern Walnut, (same color in an updated can is called Aged Bourbon). The result is great for color. Here I have placed some sample finished pieces in front of the actual trim for comparison.
    F35CA74B-1D7E-416D-B531-D4BB44CCB5D7.jpg
    The question is compatibility and curing. The samples were cured for about a week before applying the Zar. A couple of days later the stained finish on the sample is not hardened, not tacky but it feels like you could rub it off.

    Some background on the finishes, Heritage Original is safe, eco-friendly mix of linseed oil, Tung oil, pine rosin, beeswax, and citrus solvent. The oils contain no metallic driers so the finish cures over a period of weeks. It does end up as a hardened oil finish. No info on the ingredient proportions. This product used to be made by Land Ark.

    No info on the Zar ingredients. It says it is compatible with oil and water based poly finishes. I do not know anything about what is in the gelling agents. I cannot imagine what would not be compatible with the Heritage finish except maybe the beeswax for adhesion.

    My questions are for others’ experience with hardening oil finishes and Zar gel, chemistry that might affect compatibility, and drying and curing strategies.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    I really like Land Arc original finish on timbers. I don't recall it having BLO in it, but the rest of the ingredients sound correct.

    Re your question, why don't you ask Heritage?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott T Smith View Post
    I really like Land Arc original finish on timbers. I don't recall it having BLO in it, but the rest of the ingredients sound correct.

    Re your question, why don't you ask Heritage?
    Of course I did, but there is a fire out there. Not expecting a quick response.

  4. #4
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    Make a sample! The gel stain shouldn’t cause any issue with your existing finish, especially if it’s cured. Your other option is to dye some of the original oil finish or an oil based varnish of your choice and apply it over the existing to darken it.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  5. #5
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    I don't see a problem as long as the original stain is cured. Your test samples weren't fully cured so that's why the ZAR stain hasn't hardened. A barrier coat of dewaxed shellac might be a good idea to keep the ZAR from reacting with the stain underneath and to mitigate any negative bonding issues due to the beeswax.

    John

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    Make a sample! The gel stain shouldn’t cause any issue with your existing finish, especially if it’s cured. Your other option is to dye some of the original oil finish or an oil based varnish of your choice and apply it over the existing to darken it.
    Thanks for taking a look, Jim. I am coloring outside the lines with this approach, i.e. Heritage does not recommend applying stain over or under their finish. I just thought, based on ingredients it was worth a try.

    Those are samples in the second photo. The stain was applied over partiallly cured Heritage finish. It seemed not to harden as much as the trim with finish only, hence the concern. As it stands, I am just waiting to see how it cures. Natural oils without driers reach full cure in weeks to months. I am impatient to know how it will work so I can finish the finishing and get the tools back into position. As it stands, only three samples with slight variations in application method have been stained. The trim that is on the walls is oiled but is awaiting more knowledge or more results from the stain samples. I have plenty of scrap for more sample finishes.

    Heritage recommends Trans Tint soluble dyes added to their finish. The Zar is probably a mixture of soluble dyes and insoluble pigment. The Zar gives a really good color match. It would be hard to duplicate with dye alone. The pigment obscures the difference in the new and late wood. The dye gives a warm brown color like the oak. It was good luck to find such a good color match in the first thing I tried. To get an acceptabLe match with TransTint would require a lot of test samples. But I am aware of that option.

    I didn’t think varnish top coat would be an option because of the beeswax in the Heritage make the bond weak. Is that right? Have you put varnish over oil/wax? I may try tinted spar varnish but that is down the list. The Heritage is a soft finish, varnish is a hard. Soft over hard works. Hard over soft is a way to get a crinkle finish. Right?

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by Thomas Wilson; 09-14-2020 at 10:54 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by John TenEyck View Post
    I don't see a problem as long as the original stain is cured. Your test samples weren't fully cured so that's why the ZAR stain hasn't hardened. A barrier coat of dewaxed shellac might be a good idea to keep the ZAR from reacting with the stain underneath and to mitigate any negative bonding issues due to the beeswax.

    John
    Thanks, John. That is reassuring. I think the same thing. The problem is that the curing process is slow. The finish on the oak beams is fully cured but it has been on for months. I had not thought about a shellac barrier. I am going to give it a day or so more. Unless someone shows up that has tried something like this, whatever my approach will be a large expensive experiment that I won’t know the outcome of for months.

  8. #8
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    TransTint is soluble in water or alcohol.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    TransTint is soluble in water or alcohol.
    You are correct. It is Mixol pigment that Heritage recommends and sells.

  10. #10
    Just to clarify, both Heritage and TransTint mention a “additive for oil-based stain”. Neither says what it is. I would assume something noxious like acetone, so I would not want to try that.

    I tried buffing my stained sample pieces with white paper towel to test adhesion. Almost nothing came off and the finish afterward felt dry and “cured”. That was encouraging. I spent yesterday filling nail holes and thinking. I reasoned without any actual testing that the penetration and drying phase is simultaneously a diffusion and evaporation process. The mixture would diffuse into the wood. The solvent would evaporate at the surface. The components of the mixture would tend separate in the wood. The diffusion coefficients would be different, the limits of solubility would be different. Both processes would tend to separate the components like a distillation column. My guess is that the wax is most soluble and would tend to effloresce to the surface somewhat more than the oils. The concentration of wax on the surface would leave microscopic pockets of wax that would not adhere to the pigment particles. Consequently, buffing removes some of the surface wax and that would improve adhesion. It also changes the tactile feel of the surface so it does not have that worrisome “not fully hardened” feel.

    I will try buffing some samples with paper towel, brown paper, and maybe cloth, then staining. I am optimistic.
    Last edited by Thomas Wilson; 09-15-2020 at 9:10 AM.

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