Process steps

[Jim Tobias]

As I am somewhat of a "novice" to turning, I wanted to ask this experienced audience on the Turner's Forum for their advice/ideas.
I have attempted and completed a bowl and have plans to do more but at the moment, I have a virtual vendor show coming up and need to complete some round tops for numerous Octagonal Boxes( ~8" wide). I have watched a lot of YouTube videos of bowl turners(many of whom are on this forum) and I see that the most common sequence seems to be attach wood(drive center/Worm screw/glue block/faceplate) to the lathe and turn the outside of the bowl first and create either a recess or tenon to be used to flip and attach the bowl into Chuck jaws. Then turn out the interior of the bowl.
I have done a couple and have been putting a glue block on the top side and doing the inside of the top first. I have turned a "lip"/tenon" on the inside so I can flip and chuck it so I can then part the glue block off and finish shaping the top side of the piece.
Now, my questions is: if you were doing a top for larger box(like I described above), would you follow that same progression or would you do it in some other order or steps?
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks ,
Jim

[Chris A Lawrence]

Are you going to be putting knobs on the lid? When i make lidded bowls to make the lid i start with a shallow 2 1/8 inch hole with a special forstner bit "ground off the point" and shape the top. Then drill a 1/2 inch hole for my knob and flip it into pin jaws to clean up and shape the bottom. The forstner bit with the ground off point keeps a dimple from being drilled in the center of the starter hole. 2 1/8 inch is a good size to fit the 50mm jaws that come with most chucks. Using the same size starter hole i can turn an entire bowl without changing chucks using the same process.

[Jim Tobias]

Thanks for the response. I do typically put a knob or lift of some type on the boxes. They vary a lot. There is typically a hole that I can put a bolt or metal rod through to attach the knob/lift.
I read carefully your description but cannot envision it exactly. Can you clarify or do you have e any pictures....."worth a thousand words".
Thanks
Jim

Are you going to be putting knobs on the lid? When i make lidded bowls to make the lid i start with a shallow 2 1/8 inch hole with a special forstner bit "ground off the point" and shape the top. Then drill a 1/2 inch hole for my knob and flip it into pin jaws to clean up and shape the bottom. The forstner bit with the ground off point keeps a dimple from being drilled in the center of the starter hole. 2 1/8 inch is a good size to fit the 50mm jaws that come with most chucks. Using the same size starter hole i can turn an entire bowl without changing chucks using the same process.

[John K Jordan]

As I am somewhat of a "novice" to turning, I wanted to ask this experienced audience on the Turner's Forum for their advice/ideas.
I have attempted and completed a bowl and have plans to do more but at the moment, I have a virtual vendor show coming up and need to complete some round tops for numerous Octagonal Boxes( ~8" wide). I have watched a lot of YouTube videos of bowl turners(many of whom are on this forum) and I see that the most common sequence seems to be attach wood(drive center/Worm screw/glue block/faceplate) to the lathe and turn the outside of the bowl first and create either a recess or tenon to be used to flip and attach the bowl into Chuck jaws. Then turn out the interior of the bowl.
I have done a couple and have been putting a glue block on the top side and doing the inside of the top first. I have turned a "lip"/tenon" on the inside so I can flip and chuck it so I can then part the glue block off and finish shaping the top side of the piece.
Now, my questions is: if you were doing a top for larger box(like I described above), would you follow that same progression or would you do it in some other order or steps?
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks ,
Jim

Jim,

I'm not sure exactly what you are doing but I will say I always turn the outside of a bowl, box, or vessel first because that is what is seen when you look at the finished piece. I want the shape to be "right" and let the mostly unseen inside be what it turns out to be - the inside shape is not as important to me.

But for the lid for a box/bowl I tend to hollow the inside first and turn the lip, tenon, or recess to fit the piece. This does require more careful planning and measurement for things like getting a seamless transition with the base and a reasonable thickness. However, since the rest of the piece is also turned I usually keep it in a chuck and jam the lid on the base to shape the rim and the top. I keep force against the lid with the tailstock and shape everything except for the bit in the center. I prefer to turn (or nibble!) away any waste or waste block since parting it off can apply more sideways force than I like. Then, unless the lid is a tight jam fit, I tape the lid firmly to the box/bowl, remove the tailstock, and finish shaping the center of the top of the lid. This takes the place of holding the lid from the inside.

This technique might not work so well with your octagonal boxes. In that case, I might turn piece of scrap wood to fit and jam or tape the lid to that to finish the top (still supporting by the tailstock as long as possible.)

Other ways to hold the lid while turning the top side are with Cole jaws, with a shop-made donut chuck, or use a vacuum chuck. But your way of holding with a shallow tenon is as good as any. If the design warranted, using a shallow recess instead of a tenon will work too and leave the lid with a bit less wood on the inside. In some cases a recess can hold the piece better than a tenon. By rigging a way to reverse and hold the lid again the inside can be turned again to remove the recess or tenon. If I leave a recess in a piece I like to detail around and inside it a bit for appearance.

JKJ

[Paul Williams]

My process is similar to what Chris described. I start with a flat circle cut on the band saw slightly larger than the finished lid will be. I drill a 2 1/8 inch recess on what will be the bottom of the lid. I also use a forstner bit with the center point ground off. I would guess the recess is normally about 3/16, maybe less if the lid is light and thin. I mount on the chuck with 50 mm jaws. I bring up the tailstock to mark a center as much as to secure the lid from the top side. Turn it round and to size. Cut a recess on the back side if required. Shape the top. If a knob or finial is desired I drill a hole while it is still mounted on the chuck. Normally I also sand and finish before removing it from the chuck.

If the fit is critical I either remove the lid from the chuck to check the recess, or start with the top side mounted so I can bring the bowl up to the lid and verify size. This only applies if using a recess to fit into the bowl. If there is a lip inside the bowl and the lid will fit into the bowl this is not required.

[Paul Williams]

Jim, I think you were just asking about the lid. If you also are also interested in the bowl, my process is almost identical. I start by drilling a 2 1/8 inch hole on the top of the blank. Relatively deep and with a bit that has a center point. This will be inside the bowl so it doesn't matter. Then I mount and turn the outside of the bowl. On the lathe I drill another 2 1/8 inch hole with the bit that the center point has been ground off. On a larger bowl I might increase the size of this hole to fit larger jaws. Often I add decoration to the bottom of the bowl. Take it off the lathe and turn it around to mount by the new hole on the bottom. Hollow out and finish. I don't think I have used a faceplate or worm screw for a bowl in the last two years.

[Jim Tobias]

Thanks for all the tips. This is what I accomplished today. My process was to put a glue block on what will be the top of the lid and then attach a faceplate to the flue block. I turned the inside of the lid first, also turning a tenon that I can flip and put in my Supernova 2 chuck jaws. Then I turn the glue block off and shape the top. This means I will have to cut or grind the small(2.5") tenon. Not too hard as I have done that on other tops in the past. Any ideas or hints/suggestions are welcome.
Pictures show first coat of Tried and True Polymerized Linseed oil and Beeswax(my new favorite finish). The octagonal box is close to complete....Lakewood.
Jim
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[Timothy Thorpe Allen]

What if you used a recess (to expand the chuck into) rather than a tenon on the bottom side of the lid, and make the recess a "feature," so you leave it?

[Jim Tobias]

Timothy,
That is an idea that I think would work except maybe when the top has a deeper opening(taller top on outside). Then the jaws might not
reach. But, I could look into those "extended jaws" that I have seen advertised! Has anyone used those for a purpose like this? That might be a good idea.....I
am going slow and trying to settle on a process that will work on "most" of the tops.
Thanks for the input,
Jim

[Paul Williams]

Great looking lid and box. Timothy posted my suggestion while I was looking for this photo to give you an idea of some of the many things you could do with a recess on the inside of the lid. This has become my standard bottom treatment because it is so easy and people do not expect to see anything on the bottom of a bowl or the inside of a lid. The square plate is 3/8 inch thick so you can see it doesn't take much wood for this to work.

bowl bottoms.jpg

[John K Jordan]

Timothy,
That is an idea that I think would work except maybe when the top has a deeper opening(taller top on outside). Then the jaws might not
reach. But, I could look into those "extended jaws" that I have seen advertised! Has anyone used those for a purpose like this? That might be a good idea.....I
am going slow and trying to settle on a process that will work on "most" of the tops.
Thanks for the input,
Jim

I use these Nova jaws for things like that:
long_nose_jaws.jpg
They are also good for holding extra long squares or rounds for spindle work.

As for leaving the recess and detailing around it, I do that a lot for bowls and platters:

bottom_IMG_4749.jpg bottom_PC012804_e.jpg bottom_cherry_IMG_7424.jpg bottom_IMG_4687.jpg

I've had turners tell me You can't do that, it's against the "rules" to which I say That's what YOU think.

JKJ

[Jim Tobias]

Great looking lid and box. Timothy posted my suggestion while I was looking for this photo to give you an idea of some of the many things you could do with a recess on the inside of the lid. This has become my standard bottom treatment because it is so easy and people do not expect to see anything on the bottom of a bowl or the inside of a lid. The square plate is 3/8 inch thick so you can see it doesn't take much wood for this to work.

bowl bottoms.jpg

Thanks Paul,
I will defintely give this idea a try on an upcoming top and see if I can make it work. It seems very workable for my process.
Jim

[Jim Tobias]

I use these Nova jaws for things like that:
long_nose_jaws.jpg
They are also good for holding extra long squares or rounds for spindle work.

As for leaving the recess and detailing around it, I do that a lot for bowls and platters:

bottom_IMG_4749.jpg bottom_PC012804_e.jpg bottom_cherry_IMG_7424.jpg bottom_IMG_4687.jpg

I've had turners tell me You can't do that, it's against the "rules" to which I say That's what YOU think.

JKJ

John,
That is exactly the extended jaws that I had looked at for the Supernova 2. Do you think I would have any leverage issues if I had a 10-11" top on that? Probably would be 1.5" think or less.
Sometimes the top is excavated(like the inside of a bowl)on the inside and I think I need a set of jaws that would down into the excavated area and grip....if that makes sense. On some of the small boxes the top is almost tall almost like a "circus tent" shape. I think the extended jaws would definitely work for those.

Jim

[John K Jordan]

John,
That is exactly the extended jaws that I had looked at for the Supernova 2. Do you think I would have any leverage issues if I had a 10-11" top on that? Probably would be 1.5" think or less.
Sometimes the top is excavated(like the inside of a bowl)on the inside and I think I need a set of jaws that would down into the excavated area and grip....if that makes sense. On some of the small boxes the top is almost tall almost like a "circus tent" shape. I think the extended jaws would definitely work for those.

Jim

I don't have any leverage issues. If concerned, make the recess a little deeper and don't have any catches! Use light cuts with sharp tools an never apply aggressive tool pressure in a direction that could work to pry the work out of the jaws.

Also tighten well. For some chucks, especially those like the Teknatool Supernova 2 with internal gears, you can get a much better grip if you tighten at one socket, then rotate the chuk 180-deg and tighten again. Do this multiple time, always with moderate and never heavy force. After a few iterations you an really feel how tight the jaws are getting. I heard one demonstrator say "tighten the chuck in all six places!"

It would be interesting to see some pictures of your boxes and lids, if you haven't already posted and I missed it.

JKJ

[Jim Tobias]

Thanks John, I did crank down on it pretty good today just for the very reason that I'm new at this. Also, so far , I've done 2 tenons and 1 recess. I feel line both are used by a lot of turners but each has their own preference.
I ordered that extended jaw for the Supernova 2....be here by the end of the week so I will test it out.
Here are a couple of pictures of the boxes and their respective tops. The shapes are pretty straightforward as the grain is pretty figured.. I tend to keep the shape simpler with highly figured wood and let the wood do the talking. I still have to do more finishing and either make or turn lifts/knobs for them. Some will get feet as well depending on how the end up looking.

Jim

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