Subpanel + 220v outlet + 110v outlet = $3600

[Ben Rivel]

I am actually in Seattle now...updated my location. I had another electrician out and he said I could just do more tandem outlets to free space, but I may do the subpanel anyway. I do not know why they added so many breakers to this house, its only 1200 sq ft. I think his pricing is going to be much more reasonable, waiting on a quote. If it comes back too much I will just do it myself. I have done enough research now, i feel pretty comfortable doing it. Plus the city is pretty quick to do inspections and they are only around $100 I found out.

Wait, you have a 1200sqft house with a 200A panel and its FULL?! Dude, something ain't right there. I have added a lot of new circuits to my 200A panel in a 3100sqft house and I still have a lot of room left.

Do you have a spa in the backyard? Jacuzzi tub in the master bath? Pool? Solar? Those items usually have larger breakers that take up more room. I think you should trace out those circuits and try and figure out what each line actually feeds. Turn off the main breaker before you go actually messing with them! I bet there are some that you could eliminate and or combine into dual 15A breakers and between those two efforts you probably have all the room you need in that panel for your garage/shop circuits.

[Robert Mayer]

Wait, you have a 1200sqft house with a 200A panel and its FULL?! Dude, something ain't right there. I have added a lot of new circuits to my 200A panel in a 3100sqft house and I still have a lot of room left.

Do you have a spa in the backyard? Jacuzzi tub in the master bath? Pool? Solar? Those items usually have larger breakers that take up more room. I think you should trace out those circuits and try and figure out what each line actually feeds. Turn off the main breaker before you go actually messing with them! I bet there are some that you could eliminate and or combine into dual 15A breakers and between those two efforts you probably have all the room you need in that panel for your garage/shop circuits.

Its crazy. They have so many lights and outlets on separate circuits its crazy. And the panel is 3/4 full with tandem breakers already. So I have a LOT of breakers. I do have a downstairs unit with its own kitchen for the airbnb. It has an electric stove and 3 electric wall heaters. So that is taking up some of it.

[Tyler Bancroft]

Its crazy. They have so many lights and outlets on separate circuits its crazy. And the panel is 3/4 full with tandem breakers already. So I have a LOT of breakers. I do have a downstairs unit with its own kitchen for the airbnb. It has an electric stove and 3 electric wall heaters. So that is taking up some of it.

That's whackadoodle. Who wires a house like that?

[roger wiegand]

Ah, Seattle. That (in part) explains it. Get another bid, but don't expect it to become suddenly cheap.

[John K Jordan]

Its crazy. They have so many lights and outlets on separate circuits its crazy. And the panel is 3/4 full with tandem breakers already. So I have a LOT of breakers...

In that case, I might consider another possibility.

I might first identify circuits that could be combined. For example, you can easily put a bunch of lights or a bunch of general purpose residential 110v receptacles on one breaker. If access to to the walls or ceiling near the panel is reasonable I might mount a junction box near the panel, disconnect a bunch of wires from the panel and bring them into the junction box and tie them all together, then run a single circuit from a single breaker to that junction box. (pay attention to the number of conductors allowed in a junction box of a given volume)

I can envision a constellation of junction boxes mounted in a halo around the panel, freeing up a bunch of breaker slots! The only cost would be the junction boxes, some romex connectors, some wire nuts, and maybe a few short pieces of romex.

JKJ

[Robert Mayer]

In that case, I might consider another possibility.

I might first identify circuits that could be combined. For example, you can easily put a bunch of lights or a bunch of general purpose residential 110v receptacles on one breaker. If access to to the walls or ceiling near the panel is reasonable I might mount a junction box near the panel, disconnect a bunch of wires from the panel and bring them into the junction box and tie them all together, then run a single circuit from a single breaker to that junction box. (pay attention to the number of conductors allowed in a junction box of a given volume)

I can envision a constellation of junction boxes mounted in a halo around the panel, freeing up a bunch of breaker slots! The only cost would be the junction boxes, some romex connectors, some wire nuts, and maybe a few short pieces of romex.

JKJ

Here is a picture with the panel off. There is really no access in the walls to combine wires. I assume you cant just splice wires together inside the panel?

https://imgur.com/xKrce9p

[Jim Becker]

That's a "short" panel for a 200 amp setup! My 200 amp panel for the house and the 200 amp panel for the shop have twice the physical capacity of what you show in that photo.

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BTW, if you become a Contributor ($6 annually), you'll be able to post photos directly, have access to private messages and be able to access the Classifieds forum.

[Jeff Heil]

You are looking at about $200 to $250 in materials for a 100 amp sub panel, breakers and wire. I installed a sub-panel to my 200 amp service when we finished the basement a few years ago, not hard to do yourself if you are handy. That quote seems like someone that did not need or want the work. Stop by a house under construction in your area with an electrician's van outside and see if you can find someone that is looking for an extra job in the area if you prefer to hire it done.

[Frank Pratt]

That's a real small panel & the number of circuit breakers is certainly about what I'd expect for your house. I don't understand why contractors install those small panels. The price difference between it and one with twice as many spaces is insignificant, maybe $20 or $30

[John K Jordan]

Here is a picture with the panel off. There is really no access in the walls to combine wires. I assume you cant just splice wires together inside the panel?

https://imgur.com/xKrce9p

You will probably have to remove at least some sheet rock regardless of how you proceed.

But yikes. Someone installed a tiny breaker panel and "shorted" you a bunch of slots! It looks like you have just 20 slots for breakers. My 200 amp panel (installed around 1980) has 42 slots. I still have plenty of spare slots.

electrical_panel.jpg

After seeing your picture my first thought was to rip out that box and install a larger one. I did that in two previous houses. In my first house I ripped out a fuse box in the kitchen and installed a new service entrance and a 200 amp breaker box under the house.

But replacing a box with a larger one is a lot of electrical work compared to your original plan of adding a sub panel. One thing to consider is the lengths of every wire entering the box to insure they will reach the breaker positions in the new box. From your picture I suspect it could be made to work. However, adding and wiring a sub panel would be a lot less work than replacing the box.

All options would require sheet rock and carpentry work. I'd probably go for the sub panel, easy to install, easy to wire, and fewer things to know. I've installed several sub panels fed with a large breaker in the main panel. One sub panel was almost 700' from the main box - for that one the wiring was trivial compared to the job of installing the underground cable! Since you are out of space in your main panel, you would still have to combine some circuits (perhaps by the junction box method) and/or reroute them to the sub panel. Rerouting existing wires can be a pain but if you remove the sheet rock and expose the wiring you can decide if rerouting would be feasible, perhaps by carefully positioning the sub panel.

I prefer to make connections in junction boxes and have never spliced wires inside the panel but I understand it's acceptable if you don't exceed the space limitations. I don't know what kind of connectors are acceptable. I'm not an electrician except in Mexico. (a long story...)

JKJ

[Jim Becker]

John, is correct, there is a lot more labor involved in replacing the panel with a full sized one than there is installing a subpanel beside it or in another area to expand capacity. The down-time to do a replacement can be "fun", too, whereas installing a subpanel only requires down time for the final connections to the existing panel and, perhaps, relocating a circuit or two to the sub- to make room for the breaker that supplies the sub- if necessary. I'd probably do the rough labor portions of the myself (drywall prep for new panel, etc) to keep the paid labor down and mitigate expense.

[Roger Feeley]

That’s an, “I don’t wanna do it” price. When I built my shop I wanted a sub panel right next to the main just to separate things. I had the sub panel mounted and I had 3’ of 4g (or was it 6?) wire. All the guy needed to do was install a 70a breaker and run the wire to the sub. The quote was $900. I did it myself.

[Roger Feeley]

I was so lucky back in Kansas City. A neighbor was the chief electrician at a power plant. He was licensed in Kansas and Missouri and could work on everything from an outlet to the giant power plant equipment. AND he had three daughters in college. He did some work for me and was very reasonable.

He’s the one that turned me on to the whole usb panel thing as a way to draw a line between the amateur and the professional. It went from the main panel to a big cutoff switch that isolated the sub and then to the sub panel where I could do anything I wanted safely. I’ve moved twice since then and always set it up that way. Over the years I’ve gotten quite a few compliments on the arrangement.

[Tom M King]

I've never even seen a 20 slot 200 amp panel. I thought 28 slot was the smallest. I've always used 40 slot 200 amp boxes.

[Ben Rivel]

Yep, agree with everyone else, that is a mini panel. Thats your problem.