Woodworking for a living

[Patrick Kane]

I fully agree you.

Fancy woodshop usually belongs to hobbyists with lots of disposable money and some youtubers, a.k.a. "paid influencers".

Professional ones usually are way more "frugal" in order to get ROI and maintain competitive.

I understand these sentiments, but i hope we all agree the expensive machines/tools arent only for show. Frankly, Derek's description of that cabinet shop makes me feel bad for the owner. Hes either not busy enough to invest in himself, or he doesnt know any better. I cant imagine making cabinets for a living and not having a slider. Im not talking digital stops etc. i just mean a basic 20 year old workhorser in OK shape. I feel the same way for the finish carpenters without a track saw, quality miter saw, etc. I dont feel you need to be decked out in Festool swag, but man, a lot of those tools make life so much easier/faster/better. I think it was on FOG/here, but a guy asked about how to charge for commissions, and several pros commented on timing themselves per cut. Dont spend money for the sake of spending money, but i would HIGHLY recommend investing in the right equipment. I remember my first domino was $500 used and it made my panel glueups 10x easier, not to mention everything else it excels at. Same for the TS75. I picked one up from an estate sale for $300-400, and i cant imagine making countertops without it. That tool is probably 6 years in my possession and its invaluable. I could go on and on and on about each tool and how it paid for itself by saving me time on paid builds. Not that i am intimately familiar with European shops, but it seems their mentality is completely different to most american shops. Americans bootstrap it with a skilsaw and a 50 year old unisaw. Euro shops are heavily invested in the newest and best.

From the pure hobbyist perspective, its all about the Fun factor. I had fun with the cheap tools, but i have a lot more fun with the high end ones. A sub-category of the hobby to me is acquiring the tools i want at 'good' prices. Im a bit of a deal junky at heart, and this hobby enables that.

[Will Blick]

David, I confused your shop with this Acorn

https://www.acornwoodworks.org/about-us

sorry bout that!

[J.R. Rutter]

The fanciest shops with the best equipment I've seen around me are all pros, and I used to belong to a woodworking club that did shop tours regularly. Personally, I've bootstrapped up over many years and for the majority of the equipment upgrades, the ROI was fast. I can't imaging going back to a manual stop and chop saw for crosscuts vs a Tigerstop and jump saw, for one example. One of my customers has over $30k invested in his jointer and planer, but he also does old school cabinetry that is more like built-in furniture for the people who can afford him. The biggest customer runs two CNC routers as well as two beam saws and has the Cefla robotic finish system with drying tunnel. But I've been in those low tech cabinet shops, too, where the employees are eating dust and using tape measures to mark cuts...

[Jim Becker]

Folks not earning their living from woodworking make their tool choices because of their personal preferences, desires and ability to invest. (and the latter can include both money and time if they covet old iron). Folks who can manage it will often opt for nicer/more capable tools because of that kind of emotional thing. I was lucky to be able to do that with a few really good years in my career prior to becoming a parent.


Folks who earn their living from woodworking make their tool choices because of their business and production needs. That equates to capability, reliability, safety (especially with employees) and what value it will bring to their operation. Cost is certainly a factor, but that also includes tax considerations. Small shops and sole person operations may approach decision in different ways than larger operations...more emotional input because the work can often be more personal, but it's still a business decision. I think one of the harder things for the pro shops, particularly the smaller ones, is embracing the idea that they can do things differently than they might have been doing for a long time. That can prevent them from investing in some things that would help them make a better product, more efficiently and give them more time for the "finesse" work that makes their output special.

Folks who transition from hobby to earning a living will often start out with where they are and what they have--and make decisions as time passes and their business evolves. That's kinda, sorta where I fit. I had a nice shop and added the CNC at the same time I decided to do more work for others...more and new capability and a pseudo extra worker in the shop in some respects since I can work on something else while the machine is doing what it does.

[Bruce King]

I thought I had everything I needed but just ordered a Jet 18-36 sander. The domino jointer sounds good so maybe that next. Not sure how to work any faster since I take too much time making sure something is going to work, I don’t use plans because it would be a constant “ checking the plans”. I use a lot of math during the process which prevents mistakes but adds on time.

[Matt Day]

You never have everything. Especially after you buy all the shiny new stuff then realize the vintage stuff is better.

[Will Blick]

Jim, since you do low volume commission work..
how much time savings was the CNC now that you have been using it?
Between working CAD, tuning the machine, changing bits, etc.
I can see a huge benefit when you cut the same parts over and over...then its like a robot which is why you see them in nearly ever cabinet shop.
sometimes I fear with low volume, one-offs, I would spend more time tinkering with CAD and CNC to get the cuts right, I could have done it manually? ?
I have been tricked by automation before... hee hee... I am curious of your input.
Did u get a CNC with multi tool head?

[Dan Chouinard]

So you want to be a cabinetmaker? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

Thank you Kevin for the amusing animation.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I understand these sentiments, but i hope we all agree the expensive machines/tools arent only for show. Frankly, Derek's description of that cabinet shop makes me feel bad for the owner. Hes either not busy enough to invest in himself, or he doesnt know any better. I cant imagine making cabinets for a living and not having a slider. Im not talking digital stops etc. i just mean a basic 20 year old workhorser in OK shape. I feel the same way for the finish carpenters without a track saw, quality miter saw, etc. I dont feel you need to be decked out in Festool swag, but man, a lot of those tools make life so much easier/faster/better. I think it was on FOG/here, but a guy asked about how to charge for commissions, and several pros commented on timing themselves per cut. Dont spend money for the sake of spending money, but i would HIGHLY recommend investing in the right equipment. I remember my first domino was $500 used and it made my panel glueups 10x easier, not to mention everything else it excels at. Same for the TS75. I picked one up from an estate sale for $300-400, and i cant imagine making countertops without it. That tool is probably 6 years in my possession and its invaluable. I could go on and on and on about each tool and how it paid for itself by saving me time on paid builds. Not that i am intimately familiar with European shops, but it seems their mentality is completely different to most american shops. Americans bootstrap it with a skilsaw and a 50 year old unisaw. Euro shops are heavily invested in the newest and best.

From the pure hobbyist perspective, its all about the Fun factor. I had fun with the cheap tools, but i have a lot more fun with the high end ones. A sub-category of the hobby to me is acquiring the tools i want at 'good' prices. Im a bit of a deal junky at heart, and this hobby enables that.

There is a different take on the idea that skilsaw and a 50 year old uni are inferior. The point of a business is to generate revenue. Saving some of that revenue for profit is highly desirable, and one of the components is not overspending on overhead. If I can buy 3 or 4 skilsaws for the price of one festool anything, it is an opportunity to figure out interesting ways to save $. For example, you can set up every one of those Skilsaws differently for a specific purpose and be far better off than spending the $ on a festool which is always a one trick pony. Those specific function skilsaws then actually turn out to be a superior tool for the job at hand. I happen to have on that shelf of tools across the shop from me, skilsaws set up with diamond blades for cement board with a dust chute cobbled on, demo saws that look like they went through a demolition derby, one pet with a very good blade and dialed in perfectly for ripping against a straight edge, and multiple framing saws. A festool saw would be horrible for all of those functions save one, so who has the better tools?

Same could be said about shapers, table saws, etc.

I do also have right across the room from that shelf, a nice Felder. I cut my countertops on it, and I'd contend that it is superior for that job in every way to a track saw. Again, who has the better tools?

It's all relative, if you can use the tools you have to their full potential and want nothing more, it's the right tool. Yes, I do have a festool collection from the hobby days, but I honestly don't use it for much any more.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, since you do low volume commission work..
how much time savings was the CNC now that you have been using it?

Will, honestly? No "time savings". But I can do some things that I wasn't able to do in the past that not only bring in nice money, but also answer to my pleasure in the art. Here's an example...those appliques on the fireplace that I had to model from a single photo of a magnolia bloom in software and then spend 8 hours cutting. Each. That one job paid for the more advanced software fully plus a lot more.





But as I mentioned, I could work on other things while the machine was cutting since I had to be physically in the shop the whole time for safety reasons. Sometimes that was work for the same client; sometimes it was work for another client; and sometimes it was personal stuff. For me, the CNC is "just a tool" but one I enjoy using as it intersects both my technology background and my artistic side. And what I'm really enjoying is the collaboration it's opened up...a good chunk of my paid work is subcontracting to other makers, producing a component or a special effect for their projects. I spent quite a bit of time last week doing just that for a carving that a maker needed for two very custom chairs they are making on commission.

[David Sochar]

Professional shops require a somewhat different level of equipment than a personal shop.

In the professional shop, the tools work for the woodworker. In the hobby shop, the woodworker works for the tools.

With 8,000 s/f and 6 people, we had a 20 hp straight line ripsaw, and a 4 head Weinig molder and a large panel saw. We were looking at single end tenoners when the Earth shifted beneath us.

Not too many small shops need such equipment. We are now 2 of us, with the basics, plus a Maka mortiser, SCMI shaper, and Powermatic tenoner as the odd bits for our more specialized work. We do not build box cabinets, so not even a panel saw. The tools I have today, and use today work for me. They will break down and need repairs or even replacement. That is to be expected.

I personally grow tired of the endless emphasis on equipment - the "which router bit should I buy?" type guy at a wood show, tying up the booth with inane patter. Then goes home and orders the router bit online. For most, it just doesn't matter. It is like some some arcane corner of hyper-consumerism, where you buy what you must, because you must.

[Will Blick]

Interesting response, thx Jim...
I will make the plunge into CNC in the future...
just making sure I dont end up spending 3x more time to accomplish the same task.
But as you correctly point out, there is things such as your carvings, I would never be able to accomplish. Working in CAD, I marvel how I waste days to accomplish tasks that when finished, don't seem that complex!
I think the Shaper portable CNC tool will solve the floor space problem, and will allow many more ww to enter into CNC. Should be interesting to see how that develops...

Fully understood about using tools to maximize profits vs. having more prestigious name tags on the tools. But just like cars, it seems everyone has a different approach to what works best for them.

[Jim Becker]

Will, the kewelest thing for me is that I can "cut" whatever I'm working on virtually over and over and over and over until it's what I want it to be. That's one reason that I kinda treat my CNC like a hammer...you know that to a hammer, everything is a nail. Note, that's not necessarily a practical thing when earning money. One should always use the tools and techniques that provide the required end result...including quality...that is the most efficient. Time can matter in that respect. CNC has a learning curve, too, but one that I've found to be totally worth it toward my enjoyment of the craft, whether I'm building for someone else or for myself.

[Will Blick]

Jim, the "over n over" part... ROFL !!!
That is me! which is why I fear CNC...
I am a tweaker also !

But your point is valid.... can you imagine a carving you did by hand taking days, does not just look just right.... most people wont do it over and over by hand... but to tinker with it in 3D CAD for a few hours, and let the CNC do all the revisions, is an amazing benefit technology offers us.

I notice that basic CNC is not too costly, specially if NOT full size 4x8 or larger. But that is for XYZ axis only.... when you start adding the other two axis, price jump crazy high... or add tool changers, faster speed, better vacuum tables, etc. Seems there is so many choices today, you need to truly understand your needs and budget before jumping in.

[Bruce King]

Does anyone glue up 3/4 hardwood into larger pieces and cut with a CNC?