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Thread: New Shop: kibitzing invited

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    Sounds like a nice place. Welcome to the Creek!
    Since you also like handtools, you should come visit our Neanderthal sub-forum on SMC.
    Fred
    Thank you!

    When I dig out Uncle Fred's tools (sash fillister and other wooden screw-adjusted hand planes), I'll be sure to share some pictures there. I also have a nice 55 with only one cutter missing from the original holders. I've only used it a couple of times, but it's just cool to mess around with -- and those FENCES! Really a lovely chunk of Victorian excess.
    --Jack S. Llewyllson

    Gratitude is a gift to yourself.

    Purity tests are the bane of human existence.

    Codeine takes the pain from every muscle but the heart.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by james manutes View Post
    Welcome to the "creek" . Have you considered a load calc. to get your heating/ cooling requirements ? Do you even need AC or heat ? Consider replacing the trash can separator with a Dust deputy ? Sorry , shop built cyclones are a favorite of mine . How about an Air cleaner also . You have some great gear there , I'd think about better DC , thats about it .
    My 100A box is the biggest subpanel I can reasonably run, so that's the upper bound of available current. Planning to put a couple of boxes in and recycle a pair of King wall heaters that we have lying around. They're not the most efficient, but it's more economically efficient than buying new kit.

    No need for AC. The insulation will be better than present shop, which stays tolerable. Also, we're in the Seattle area, which is pretty easy-going weather, and our house is on a heat pump, so I can always stumble inside and cool off at lunch time.

    My dust collection "system" is a pretty patched-up mess. I'll definitely want to upgrade there, although I may miss my ol' steel can. It's handy for mulching!

    (P.S. no worries on missing the air cleaner -- I threw a whole lot of info out at once)
    Last edited by Jack Llewyllson; 08-16-2020 at 6:34 PM.
    --Jack S. Llewyllson

    Gratitude is a gift to yourself.

    Purity tests are the bane of human existence.

    Codeine takes the pain from every muscle but the heart.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert D Evans View Post
    I'm currently working out of my basement shop but if I ever get permission to build a larger shop, I would design it so that the dust collector and the air compressor were outside of the workshop. Those things make an annoying amount of noise.
    You and I are thinking along the same lines, Robert. I'm already scheming for a bumpout to house those items...simultaneously with upgrading both.

    First need a final inspection sign-off on the permitted footprint, though.
    --Jack S. Llewyllson

    Gratitude is a gift to yourself.

    Purity tests are the bane of human existence.

    Codeine takes the pain from every muscle but the heart.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Sounds real good Jack!
    For my fatigued self I have a large heavy sitting bench that is light enough to put on my assembly table.
    Dang, that's a good idea! I've got one of those aluminum sit/stand platforms (pre-Harbor Freight, but same idea), and I never thought of using it that way.

    I was 6'1" when I grew up, but I'm now barely 5'11" and "growing down." Still need some stuff to be at easy (belly to chest) height -- e.g. I really hate unplugging things from standard-height outlets now.
    --Jack S. Llewyllson

    Gratitude is a gift to yourself.

    Purity tests are the bane of human existence.

    Codeine takes the pain from every muscle but the heart.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    I would have a smoke detector in there linked to the ones inside.
    That's an excellent thought. Been thinking about screwing a wifi repeater to the rafters, so I'll look into wifi-linked detectors. Thanks!
    --Jack S. Llewyllson

    Gratitude is a gift to yourself.

    Purity tests are the bane of human existence.

    Codeine takes the pain from every muscle but the heart.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy D Jones View Post
    Your DC and TC separator will need to roll around to where you need them, because they likely won't suffer the duct run length to cover your shop from one location.
    No worries. They do.

    As others have mentioned, I would be looking at an upgrade for it, with more power and a good cyclone separator. Don's skimp on the filter either, although the air cleaner helps. And (also previously mentioned) plan a separate circuit for the DC, since it is almost always running when something else is running.
    Upgrading dust collection and adding a large, two-stage compressor are at least a couple of years down the line, but my fuzzy plan is to put them both outside in a separate shed with soundproofing and a dedicated circuit for each. That's not in this year's budget, though.

    I'm not sure I like the idea of two circuits in the same outlet box. Any time you need to work in a box, you have to shut off both circuits. I think you will appreciate twice as many, alternating, smaller outlet boxes distributed around the walls. You can put two circuits' boxes side by side if you want.
    I've done this one before, and I have to admit I'm pretty married to the idea. Having two circuits per box makes it easy to plug a powerhog tool into one and a light or vacuum into the other, and I appreciate the "brain-free" visual cue of making the two duplexes different colors, e.g. grey or brown on one side and white on the other. Carlon now makes a box with 47 cubic inches volume, which should make this much easier than when I did it on 10/2 inside W/M 4000 -- my fingers are way too stiff to pull that off now!

    Not too concerned with having to shut off both circuits to work on them, as I'll be shutting all the tool circuits off (with light switches) every time I leave the shop. The regular outlets will get slightly upgraded 20A switches, and the 240V circuits will get 30A switches. All will be mounted high enough to prevent toddler access (granddaughter, eh?).

    If code allows, I could see putting both 120V circuits in the same box if they are on the same 240V breaker (opposite phases) which would also give you the option for a 240V outlet. They could both be run using one 12/3 cable. But a trip on either 120V outlet would trip the other too.
    Plan is for the circuits to have multiple outlets, but no shared conductors. That level of mystery is wa-ay over my layman's head.

    If the building is specified as a garage for code purposes, all 120V outlets will likely have to be GFCI (either daisy chained with the first outlet GFCI, or on a GFCI breaker). Some local codes differ on whether 240V outlets in a garage have to be GFCI (AFAIK, the only way to do that is with a GFCI 240V breaker). Just keep in mind that many GFCI's don't like VFDs, if you ever intend to run a 3 phase machine off a VFD.
    Thanks for this, Andy -- I had to go look up "VFD." With absolutely zero machinist skills, I don't think I'm going to get into 3ph tools very soon. If I do, I'll, er... burn that bridge when I get to it.

    It is a garage/shed/outdoor building and thus qualifies as a "damp area," so all my circuits (including the 240V) are going on GFCI breakers. That way, I don't have to hunt from box to box in order to figure out which GFCI feeds my suddenly dead outlet -- I'll just go directly to the breaker box and do all my cussing at a centralized location.
    Last edited by Jack Llewyllson; 08-16-2020 at 7:02 PM.
    --Jack S. Llewyllson

    Gratitude is a gift to yourself.

    Purity tests are the bane of human existence.

    Codeine takes the pain from every muscle but the heart.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    65,675
    One thing I forgot to ask...since it's configured as a "garage", are they permitting you to do a flat/level floor or are they requiring a sloped floor like in many jurisdictions for a "garage"?
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Winterville, NC (eastern NC)
    Posts
    2,360
    Wall hung tool cabinets with doors on the front and shelves inside will free up a lot of floor space. Hang your clamps on the wall for the same reason. Seldom used tools will be happy inside a rolling tool cabinet which are available from lots of sources, including Sam's Club (visit their web site for options).
    Since you are going to have a concrete floor, consider mats to cover areas in front of tools such as the table saw, workbench, etc. Your feet/back/knees will thank you, as well as cushioning falling tools. Trust me, a freshly sharpened chisel always fall edge side down. Have fun.

  9. #24
    +1 for putting everything on wheels. I've been working with a 1-car-garage equivalent for 14 years now, and being able to move stuff around has been tremendously helpful. Even stuff like a tablesaw moves pretty easily, and my planer/router table are stowed whenever I don't need them.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Arlington, TX
    Posts
    452
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Llewyllson View Post
    No worries. They do.

    Plan is for the circuits to have multiple outlets, but no shared conductors. That level of mystery is wa-ay over my layman's head.
    When using opposite phases of the hot side (as any 240V breaker does), then if used, the neutral return currents are also opposite phase, and cancel each other. Therefore, the total neutral current will actually be the DIFFERENCE between the two hot currents.

    That's why you only need one neutral conductor for a combined 120/240V circuit. Using a single 12/3 cable (for 20A or less) keeps it simple. Black and Red are the two hots, and White is the neutral for both. If you decide you want to wire a 240V receptacle in the box, you connect the Black and Red wires to the receptacle. In the panel, Black and Red go to the two taps on the breaker, and white goes to the neutral bus bar (except to the neutral pigtail on a 240V GFCI breaker.) 240V GFCI breakers trip when the neutral current is not equal to the DIFFERENCE between the two hot currents.

    If you use two separate 12/2 cables, you have two black wires to keep separate in each box. And since you would be using two GFCI breakers, each white has to be kept with its own black, or the GFCIs will trip every time.

    -- Andy - Arlington TX

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Rochester, Minn
    Posts
    228
    I framed my opening for a garage door, but installed a pair of carriage house doors for better climate control. That way it is really easy to change back to a garage door, me or the buyer, when I leave one day. (I'm in Minnesota so winter is a bigger issue.) Framing the header that way didn't add any real cost.
    As far as 3 phase goes, if you have 240 outlets then a VFD is a piece of cake to wire. It essentially becomes the on/off switch for your machine: current on/off on the machine goes to the VFD (doorbell sized wire) and the motor goes directly to 3 other connectors on the VFD (bigger wire). No machinist degree needed. Sometimes a 3 phase machine is what you end up with, if you buy used -- I have a 3 phase Felder slider for that reason. Considering them just leaves more options; for someone who isn't a pro I don't prefer one over the other.


    Terry T.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    One thing I forgot to ask...since it's configured as a "garage", are they permitting you to do a flat/level floor or are they requiring a sloped floor like in many jurisdictions for a "garage"?
    Sorry; I missed this earlier.

    The primary slab is flat and finished smooth, with expansion joints criss-crossing the center. The "driveway," which actually only extends six feet from the bay door, is sloped away from the building and broom-finished.

    We passed the foundation inspection, so I expect the county either approves or doesn't care.

    Cheers,

    Jack
    --Jack S. Llewyllson

    Gratitude is a gift to yourself.

    Purity tests are the bane of human existence.

    Codeine takes the pain from every muscle but the heart.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Therneau View Post
    I framed my opening for a garage door, but installed a pair of carriage house doors for better climate control. That way it is really easy to change back to a garage door, me or the buyer, when I leave one day. (I'm in Minnesota so winter is a bigger issue.) Framing the header that way didn't add any real cost.
    This is a grand idea. Sadly, with the size of our property at <0.25 acre and a deck with rockery hanging off the back of the house, there isn't swing space for carriage doors out front without blocking yard passage. I thought about sliding barn-style doors, but they won't open well given the shop's proximity to a five-foot setback. The hi-lift is "easier than thinking," affordable, pretty secure, and should bring in afternoon light through a row of windows. We're in a pretty mild climate, but if it starts to freeze my teeth off in the winter I'll consider tacking some insulation (maybe blue foam?) to the inside of the door.

    Probably my biggest thermal concern should be adding a ceiling to the truss bottoms, and insulating over that.


    As far as 3 phase goes, if you have 240 outlets then a VFD is a piece of cake to wire. It essentially becomes the on/off switch for your machine: current on/off on the machine goes to the VFD (doorbell sized wire) and the motor goes directly to 3 other connectors on the VFD (bigger wire). No machinist degree needed. Sometimes a 3 phase machine is what you end up with, if you buy used -- I have a 3 phase Felder slider for that reason. Considering them just leaves more options; for someone who isn't a pro I don't prefer one over the other.

    Ah, Felder... the supermodel of shop brands. I fell into a jealous reverie and missed everything after that.

    Cheers,

    Jack
    --Jack S. Llewyllson

    Gratitude is a gift to yourself.

    Purity tests are the bane of human existence.

    Codeine takes the pain from every muscle but the heart.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    NW Indiana
    Posts
    3,078
    I would run Ethernet and cable to the shop and check for cell signal in the shop. I would look at smoke detectors or heat detectors and any security you may need. It is easy to run wires for these things when you are building.

    My wife REQUIRES that I have my cell phone with me in the shop.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    549
    Hi Jack,
    Congrats on the new shop!! I live just north of you--between Shoreline and Edmonds. I built my shop ~~20 yrs ago and couldn't imagine life without it. If interested in taking a look at how my shop has evolved PM me and we can plan a tour. I have made all the mistakes so you won't have too. John Bush.

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