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Interesting how suppliers vary. We used to use a well known big outfit that had low price ,but it always had rocks and
staples. And often stuff was a bit thin. Then found Lumber Sales. They buy stuff from good same bunch always. Poplar
came from a Menonite mill and 4/4 was usually at least 1 and 1/16th. Price was not much higher.
[OP]
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Mark's post pretty much describes where I'm at. I get zero pleasure in feeding boards into a screaming monster, I do not like disposing dust and chips and the horse farm I used to give my chips to no longer has horses so now I have to pay to have them hauled away. Most importantly though, the process takes way too much time better spent on actual woodworking . Thicknessing boards would be a task I would delegate to a grunt employee if I had one. I'm not dependent on my woodworking for a living, but woodworking has provided a side hustle income for several decades and to be worthwhile, I have to be efficient. I think I like the rational for skip planing. The grain becomes apparent but damage to boards should not be a big issue. Skip planing could cut the time jointing and planing considerably, but the some of the muscle work is still there and disposal of chips is still a factor as well, but less so. I'm assuming skip planing is cheaper than finish planing, I'll have to call my suppliers to get their input. Well, thanks all who gave input one way or the other. And thanks for tolerating my rambling thought process. As you can see I'm looking for a solution to a problem. Any others here have their lumber finish planed when purchased or is rough or skip planed your preferred purchase? Input appreciated.Originally Posted by Mark Bolton
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Mark you sound grumpy like your stuck in your Cabinet making job. I understand how difficult it is to make money in the trades today. A Cabinet shop probably one of the hardest.
Maybe when you retire one day you’ll appreciate working with wood in different way with less pressure.
Good Luck
Aj
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Skip planing, also called hit and miss, is where you don't care if you plane out all the saw marks. When I was making bevel siding for my previous house, I had white pine planed to 7/8" That resulted in skip planing. I didn't care, because I needed the 7/8" dimension and and I was going to finish plane a beveled rip cut, and the skip planed side would end up on the back of this siding. When I was doing the siding, I also had them rip to width. It saved me at hours and hours of ripping thousands of feet of white pine to 3 1/4. In case you haven't ripped a lot of white pine, after a while the resin content makes it absolutely miserable.
I have had wood planed to final dimension by the lumber yard also. I needed a bunch of red oak at 3/4" for interior trim. It wasn't exactly fine cabinet work, and the planed finish was good enough (and remarkably similar to the original I was replacing). I also had a bunch of that ripped to width as well.
From a practical/cost perspective, there really isn't a difference between having the yard "skip" plane, oversize plane, or final thickness plane; it just depends on what thickness you request. I normally have them go past skip planing but over final dimension, like getting 4/4 stock at 13/16" That way I can still have control over the final thickness and surface quality, but I only need to run it through the planer once or twice.
One thing I have noticed recently, is that more and more lumber is coming from the mill itself with a skip planing. I have wondered if this is to allow easier and/or more cost effective stacking and shipping.
Last edited by Andrew Seemann; 08-14-2020 at 1:01 AM.
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Would you follow this approach, as a casual woodworker? Some of my wider Walnut boards at 6 quarters weigh near 100 pounds.
Working around big stock in a small space is a chore.
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If I could buy skip planed wood I would; none of the hardwood suppliers within 100 miles of me offer it as an option. There's a big wholesale yard that won't sell to me as an individual, they might offer it, but I can't buy by the pallet. So it's either rough or fully surfaced. The fully surfaced wood is almost never flat or straight, so I'd need to pay for 5/4 at least to end up with 3/4" boards and do almost as much work.
I'm fortunate, there are two hardwood suppliers that I deal with they both supply S4S hardwood and moldings to the local contractors, but they also sell retail. Here is their current price list:
s4s-pricing-v2.jpg
All their lumber is kiln dried to 7% and in the 30+ years I've been dealing with them I can recall only one piece of lumber purchased from them that had any problem with warping, twisting, cupping or reaction when cut.
Lee Schierer
USNA '71
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I can't answer that question as it's hard for me to put myself into "casual woodworker" mindset. Woodworking is more of an art pursuit for me like Andrew mentioned up above somewhere. I just plain prefer taking a raw board from the start and I prefer the control that milling it from rough brings in that pursuit. S4S certainly has its place, especially for folks who are not able or not desirous of dealing with rough lumber. There's nothing wrong with it at all. There certainly can be some inconsistencies in thickness, etc., so one has to be careful shopping. But that's the case with rough, too, honestly.
Working "big things" can be and is a challenge relative to space. I occasionally get the privilege of working with big slabs, etc., and if they exceed a certain size, I'm at least thankful that one of my local suppliers can handle surfacing if I need that and they don't charge much for the effort, either. For more "regular sized" projects I break down long boards before I even start processing them, other than occasionally skimming a board to make sure I understand what I have for grain and color. I try to take great care relative to grain and color when selecting material for a given project, regardless of its nature or source.
I do understand that S4S is very much a part of many commercial concerns, too, as it can save time and we all know the saying about that. It can work well if they have a good supplier that they can trust to provide good consistency and that's whether it's final dimension stock or "proud of final" that they still lightly process for thickness and edges on their own equipment.
Last edited by Jim Becker; 08-14-2020 at 8:51 AM.
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
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For what it's worth.....
I only get S3S, because that's the only hardwood available where I live...... I still end up feeding it through a planer to get thickness of boards used consistent. I also run them across my jointer as well, before they go across the table saw. They are never perfectly straight from the supplier.
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I like to mill it myself because it gives me control over the final thickness. I am not limited to what I can buy S2S, and I can ensure that all of the boards are the same thickness.
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In my area at least there is no option for "finish" planed period other than the home center which I think is what the majority of people think of when they think of getting your material pre-surfaced. Thats not at all what I consider bringing material in surfaced. That material is dead on .750" and width, sharp corners, and finish dressed all sides. Too much risk for dents, scratches, scuffs, and so on and then youll be left undersized (if your target is .750") after cleaning it up. The surfacing from our mill will sometimes be better far than what comes off our planer and sometimes a good bit less so. I guess it depends on where you land in the sharpening schedule on their machine though they of course run onboard sharpening. Regardless, at least they peel off the bulk of the material to whatever your spec' is. Some material we bring in at 13/16", some 7/8, some 15/16". 15/16" is pretty much skipped for us though if we do bring in dead rough our mill saws everything a little plump so its not uncommon to be able to get clean at an inch which is more reason to have them deal with the nearly 3/8" of material that has to come off. At 15/16" there will still be some slight random saw marks but pretty much all the rough is gone. One edge is straight line ripped so they are straight but with pretty heavy saw marks, dead rough on the other side. That at least lets them handle one drop. And again, here, it all gets fed into a grinder and then into their boilers for the kilns so at least its not in the landfill. For me 7/8" and 13/16" are the most common because I like thick face frames and doors so after going through the sander the 7/8" material lands at a plump 13/16" and done. It never sees the planer in the shop.
We are in the same boat as you, small shop, so efficiency is paramount, as well as saving my body wherever possible. Beyond just unloading all that cellulose and lignin that will simply wind up in the dumpster, breaking down from dead rough is a lot of muscle, a lot of mess, and a lot of cost in time, knives, electricity, and right on down the line. Its great if you just enjoy it and dont have to account for your time and expenses. The real bonus to the pre-surfaced to me is every board that comes out of the pack goes straight to work. There is little to no culling, grading, sorting out knots and defect. But thats also in part because again, due to small shop and efficiency, I brining in mostly FAS but some #1 common so its all high grade material to start with because I dont hae the ability to grade and defect efficiently or store all the low grade that gets culled out.
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I would be lying if I said I wasnt grumpy but Im not really grumpy
The issue is that everyone has to quantify, even if only a little, their time/expense/overhead, whether its a hobby or not. Its not to say you have to run a hobby like a regimented factory but there is still some accounting for time and effort. If not by the individual, I'd guess their spouse would be happy to provide a little productivity accounting if asked. Then there is the mile of other issues with "do you buy your material surfaced".. some pull from custom sawyers, juicy cuts, no surfacing offered. Some buy in small lots so surfacing isnt an option or the minimum price for surfacing seems to high. All reasonable situations to be stuck having to slog that work out yourself. But the numbers thrown around here, and what I know I pay for surfacing, are incapable of being met in any small shop. Its simply not possible. So if you do it for the love of that process, thats fine. But lets not wrastle around that its cheaper, or better, or allows you to read the grain, or sorting and matching, thats all hogwash. You can sort and match any board other than a gnarly twisted nightmare that barely leaves you enough final thickness to work with, if its pre-surfaced and youll be that much closer to "woodworking" as opposed to "lumber processing".
Its been beat to death here a million times. Surfacing material from dead rough is brute work, prior post called it grunt work. I tend to see it as ridiculously expensive grunt work.
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The bane of my existence.... should be outlawed.
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Didn't read the other replies . . . I buy rough sawn or slightly planed (not S2S) hardwood because it allows for slight wood movement after it gets to my shop and I still have flexibility to get a full 3/4" or most often even 7/8" for my projects. The place I buy from has great hardwood, dried to a good moisture content for the area I live in, and planes it to 15/16" to give the buyer some look at the grain. I do pay more for the wood from this place, but it's worth it. There is less waste. I don't have to worry about moisture content and movement before cutting, and it requires less time planing. I don't know if it would be economical though if you are a professional who uses a large volume of wood. I'm not.
After the lumber gets to my shop and acclimates, there is generally at least a little movement. If the lumber is already S2S, it's OK as long as there is sufficient thickness to allow some final planing and jointing to get whatever size you require. For example, I buy lumber that has been planed to about 15/16". It helps for me to see the grain while buying and cuts my planing time down a little. This still can be a little bit of a problem if you are trying to get 7/8" from it if there is any cupping or twisting. The place I buy from, though, sells wood that is dried to a perfect moisture content for our area and there is rarely significant movement once it gets to my shop. Having it to at least 15/16" gives me flexib
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For shops that employ kids ,all of whom are only thinking of girls, weed,and cars. Jointer facing IS a bad idea ! And
THEY can even find a way to get hurt on the planer!
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