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Thread: Sharpening a new Lie Nielsen A2 plane blade, getting black gunk

  1. #1
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    Sharpening a new Lie Nielsen A2 plane blade, getting black gunk

    A friend stopped over with his never been sharpened, but has been used, Lie Nielsen #5 plane. He purchased it new, not sure when, but less than a year.

    So, the blade is A2 with Cryo treatment.

    Blade came at 25 degrees and he wanted it at 30 degrees. No problem, used my Tormek to take it to 30 degrees.

    The back of the blade has some machining marks so time to polish up the back.

    I wanted to knock the burr off on something hard so I grabbed one of my Dan's Hard Black Arkansas stones (Dan's claims it as their finest stone). No more burr, but, that blade really wanted to stick to the stone even with the oil, strange.

    Cleaned the blade and I dropped it onto a Shapton 5K Pro.

    I should have taken a picture, sorry, but, it was leaving dark black on the stone.

    I saw this with the Shapton 2K glass stone, 5K Pro, 8K Pro, and 16K glass stone.

    Clearly, it was pulling stuff off the blade, but what it pulled, it left very heavy on the stone, and that stuff then prevented the stone from doing its job.

    I found that a Nagura Japanese Natural Slurry Stone on the 5K helped some.

    So, initially, it was wet the stone, run a few passes on the stone, wipe it dry, water it, ....

    What we finally did was I would polish the back while my friend would continuously spray the stone. That was the best solution, but it was crazy.

    I normally polish it more than I did, but, we ended up with a nice mirror next to the edge and an OK mirror going back an inch or two.

    Next, I free handed the bevel and I have to say, it really wanted to skip on my. Very careful control to sharpen this blade.

    I don't ever remember having this much trouble and I have flattened many blades. OK, not compared to people like Steve, but at least 100 blades (chisel and plane). During the process, my friend asked if he should return the blade. I recommended that he wait to see how it cut after we slogged through things.

    We had to move the frog back a bit, but afterwards, that plane was amazing with that blade. We were pulling full length and width shavings so thin that I was measuring them as zero so probably under 0.001

    I own Lie Nielsen planes, but I did up the blades years ago. Perhaps they were this troublesome and I just do not remember.

    Does this sound normal? The final results were excellent, I just don't remember this much trouble. Maybe I am just pickier now so I do more....

  2. #2
    Yeah, wish you had a picture.
    I dont know if what I see happening on my A2 plane irons is the same as what you are experiencing. But I usually get black streaks on my Shapton stones when honing or polishing. (There's quite a lot of it when polishing the back.) I assume it is the waste material coming off the iron (swarf?). I often get "stiction" too.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

    “If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frederick Skelly View Post
    Yeah, wish you had a picture.
    I dont know if what I see happening on my A2 plane irons is the same as what you are experiencing. But I usually get black streaks on my Shapton stones when honing or polishing. (There's quite a lot of it when polishing the back.) I assume it is the waste material coming off the iron (swarf?). I often get "stiction" too.
    I would wager money that you are correct and for sure there was a lot of stiction going on as well. I am just not used to seeing so much of it.

  4. #4
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    My Lie Neilson plane blade load up my Shapton stones. When I see the most of the surface has been used it I refresh with diamond plate. I have both the Shapton diamond plates.
    Someday soon I hope to have a Nano hone from Stanley. Both my reference plates are cutting kinda slow.
    I see much more black from my high carbon chisels. But the A2 does seem to cling more.

    Good Luck
    Aj

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Hughes View Post
    My Lie Neilson plane blade load up my Shapton stones. When I see the most of the surface has been used it I refresh with diamond plate. I have both the Shapton diamond plates.
    Someday soon I hope to have a Nano hone from Stanley. Both my reference plates are cutting kinda slow.
    I see much more black from my high carbon chisels. But the A2 does seem to cling more.

    Good Luck
    In other words, this might be considered normal. The good news, of course, is that the final results were amazing, just more painful than I am used to.

  6. #6
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    The black stuff is almost certainly just steel swarf- have you not noticed it before?

    The Shapton 5k stone in my experience is pretty bad about loading. It has a rubbery sort of feel and seems to attract swarf such that it doesn't want to rinse off. So I end up flattening the stone a lot during use to keep the surface fresh. Overall the stone cuts well and leaves a nice finish but I never really liked it due to the rubbery feel and loading issues.

    I've moved onto oil stones for the most part, but I recently read that the Shapton 5k benefits greatly from a 10-15 minute soaking prior to use- that it changes the stone into something with a much better feel and resists loading. I've always treated Shapton's as "splash and go" but the next time I use them I'll soak the 5k and 15k and see if they improve. The 1k has always worked great with just a splash.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hazelwood View Post
    The black stuff is almost certainly just steel swarf- have you not noticed it before?
    I see this all the time, but, not nearly to the extent I saw this time.

    I purchased my first stones, which includes the Shapton Pro 5K, when I was trying to figure out how to sharpen a chef knife. There was a suggested set of stones and I blindly purchased them. I gave away the first two stones about a month ago since I hardly ever used them. Come to think of it, I have at least one more I should probably get rid of. I kept the Shapton Pro 5K. I figured out how to make workable use of it. I recently picked up the 8K Pro used here. Did not really need it, but the price was right.

    I don't have the 1K stone, but I have a 2K, 4K, and 6K glass stone. The glass stones will cut faster, especially on a fancier steel. I do not have any of the "high carbon" varieties.

    Thanks for the reply.

  8. #8
    "Gunk" usually means greasy. You can’t really create gunk out of metal powder and water.

    New blades are covered with some kind of rust protecting fat (oil, wax, grease ...) that needs to be removed with a thinner liquid (alcohol, white spirit, ...). If your friend’s blade was never taken out, there may have been some left. Or maybe he sprayed some wd40... These fat compound produce mayonnaise on the stones, when mixed and rubbed with water.

    My a2 blades produces less "black" on the stones than my vintage laminated blades. Nothing that prevent the stone from working anyway, the residues being "pushed" by the edge.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Andrieux View Post
    "Gunk" usually means greasy. You can’t really create gunk out of metal powder and water.

    New blades are covered with some kind of rust protecting fat (oil, wax, grease ...) that needs to be removed with a thinner liquid (alcohol, white spirit, ...). If your friend’s blade was never taken out, there may have been some left. Or maybe he sprayed some wd40... These fat compound produce mayonnaise on the stones, when mixed and rubbed with water.

    My a2 blades produces less "black" on the stones than my vintage laminated blades. Nothing that prevent the stone from working anyway, the residues being "pushed" by the edge.
    I know that he used it, but the frog was too far forward so we could not really take a shaving so I am not really sure how much but you could easily tell that it had been used. I asked if he had washed it and he said no. I should have just cleaned it completely rather than simply wiping it clean. I have plenty of choices for cleaning stuff in my shop.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Pitonyak View Post
    I know that he used it, but the frog was too far forward so we could not really take a shaving so I am not really sure how much but you could easily tell that it had been used. I asked if he had washed it and he said no. I should have just cleaned it completely rather than simply wiping it clean. I have plenty of choices for cleaning stuff in my shop.
    I usually Wd40 the tools can rust for long term storage. Don’t ask me how I know about stone mayonnaise. Living in a town with a hundred bridges is great, as I got to build myself bridges, but with bridges usually comes water, fog, flooding ... and rust.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerome Andrieux View Post
    I usually Wd40 the tools can rust for long term storage. Don’t ask me how I know about stone mayonnaise. Living in a town with a hundred bridges is great, as I got to build myself bridges, but with bridges usually comes water, fog, flooding ... and rust.
    I usually use Camellia Oil because I purchased some from Lie Nielson years ago when I purchased a hand plane from them (OK, I have a few from them) and that bottle has lasted for years.

    If you read this:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread....ut-Camelia-Oil

    They discuss things like "what causes rust" and apparently WD-40 came out as a great thing to use for this.

    Also based on the discussions, I should check to see if my Camellia oil has anything in it. Apparently you do want something in it for rust prevention, but then it is not food safe is my guess.

  12. #12
    This sounds like something I have experienced. Any oil carried over from that oil stone to a water stone caused gunk on my Norton 8000. Clean the oil off before using the water stone and gunk will be no more. I use Dawn.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by les winter View Post
    This sounds like something I have experienced. Any oil carried over from that oil stone to a water stone caused gunk on my Norton 8000. Clean the oil off before using the water stone and gunk will be no more. I use Dawn.
    I almost asked you what you used to clean the blade.... Alcohol, Acetone, ..... Oh, you use Dawn! Yeah, I have that too!

  14. #14
    I do not know if you can use Dawn on a Shapton. I know you can on a Norton. Just a drop. Keeps things clean and easy sliding.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by les winter View Post
    I do not know if you can use Dawn on a Shapton. I know you can on a Norton. Just a drop. Keeps things clean and easy sliding.
    Shapton specifically says do not use soap in the water that is used on their stones; but I can wash the blade with dawn then rinse off the soap before use on the Shapton stone.

    Ironically, they say that you can use Oil with their stones, but if you use it once, you must always use it.

    https://shapton.co.jp/en/faq/

    The FAQ uses the term "detergent" if you are looking for their comments related to soap.

    My favorite question in the FAQ is.... "Can Shapton stones be used outside Japan?"

    I understand that many people do add a few drops of soap to their water to reduce stiction. Anyone remember Stanley Covington? He indicated that soap will reduce effectiveness so he suggested the following:

    if you use soap, stick with dishwashing soap because the PH tends to be alkaline. The problem with soap is that it is slippery, and tends to reduce friction. But more friction, not less, is what you really need when sharpening steel.

    Washing soda or borax dissolved in distilled water works better. Some professional sharpeners in Japan go as far as to add dilute lye to adjust the PH of their sharpening water. These chemicals make the "water wetter" without decreasing friction, and greatly reduce water's corrosive tendency.

    I have never measured the concentration. I keep mine in a plastic wash bottle ( the kind with the plastic looped tube), and add borax or washing Soda to the water a little at a time until it will no longer dissolve. Supersaturated.

    I use this on water stones and diamond plates. It can leave a whitish ring on the stones when dry, but this has never harmed the stones or negatively affected sharpening.

    I wish I could say I invented the idea, but I learned it from professional sharpeners (you know, the guys with soggy fingers).

    I also use distilled water instead of tap water because all tap water in modern countries contains chlorine, which is a powerful oxidizer, and accumulates in closed containers. Swords are very expensive, and even a bit of chlorine that finds its way into the blades pores can cause corrosion.
    Note that I think that the water in Germany did not contain chlorine when I lived there.

    Patrick Chase opined that


    As others have said you need to understand the binder type of your stones (clay, resin, magnesia, ceramic, etc) and any resulting chemical [in]compatibilities before you go down this road. You also need to consider volatility and its impact on drying rates and heat transfer. Some magnesia stones are known to craze/crack when they dry out too quickly or are subjected to overly rapid thermal cycling, so I'd be careful using anything that evaporates faster than plain water with those.

    Soap is probably a safe choice with most if not all waterstones.
    With all that said, some people still choose to use Soap, which brings us to Stuart Tierney

    Soap, surfactant, ok (but warranty, voided!). Anything else? Well, it doesn't matter, Shapton are not supposed to be used with anything but plain water, but really a drop or two of dish soap is about as angry (chemical wise) I'd do to Shaptons. They're not tough stones, so going with anything that's not been tried by someone with deeper pockets might have you end up with a nice little pile of orange, purple or blue/green silt.

    The reasons why plain soap works are because it reduces the surface tension and softens the resin binder quickly, meaning that the surface of the stone is more strongly resistant to aquaplaning and slightly more friable making them work a little faster with less trouble. You do give up some of the dish resistance and hardness of the stones (not always a bad thing) but in exchange get rather nice stones to use. A fair trade off. It makes them work as though they were soaked for 10 minutes prior to use, which is what Shapton recommends but was (conveniently) lost in translation somewhere along the line. But the soap also means that you must clean them off with clear water and get them dry quickly or else they can be harmed because while the soap speeds up the 'workability' of them, it also accelerates the 'point of no return' as well. Use it sparingly, and more than a drop or two of good quality dishwashing soap is too much, wash it off and try again or simply dilute it with an excess of water.
    Now you can go muddle through the source:

    https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?175741-Shaptons

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