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Thread: Veritas LA/BU planes or Custom planes?

  1. #16
    I think the bu statement about beginners and tropical woods is not right.

    Sadly, this cannot be known until you work with them for a while. Both can be made to work at the highest level.

    I do believe that beginners are (finances allowing) best off buying a high quality, broad appeal plane, like a standard #4,5,7 or the Bevel up jointer or Jack. The resale on the Veritas bevel ups and the lie Nielsen bevel downs (4,5) is very Good (anecdotally) if you change your mind.

    I own a Veritas bevel up Jack and jointer and a lie Nielsen 4. I love the ergonomics on all three. The 4 bevel down does resist tear out, but I have lately been working a lot of straight grained wood and have learned how to read that, so the low angle planes work well in the right direction. Their lower center of gravity feels great and allows me to control edge jointing well. I have 3 blades that I can switch between the two. They are heavy, so they can get fatiguing for thicnkessing, but I use power tools for that.

    And the bevel down #4 is just brainless to use. When smoothing, I want the tool to be smarter than me. I get best results planing with the grain. But if I make a mistake, it won’t tear out (properly set)

    Your choice will ultimately be personal.
    Last edited by Prashun Patel; 08-07-2020 at 7:43 AM.

  2. #17
    Join Date
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    I recommend bevel down planes because they can do all tasks well, and don't require installing new blades and reconfiguring when you want to change tasks (end grain vs. long grain with tricky grain, etc.). You just have the one blade, sharpened at the same angle every time. It's sharpened at an angle that is easy to freehand, easy to maintain the correct camber.

    The only task the BU planes have any advantage on is end grain, and only if the blade is honed at 25 degrees. That 25 degree blade is a liability on long grain unless it is just really straight grained, easy stuff. The advantage on end grain is small and not worth getting too excited about, maybe unless you are doing stuff like surfacing end grain cutting boards. In that case I could see keeping one BU bench plane around, a LA jack perhaps, and just keep it with a 25 degree blade for heavy end grain work. An inexpensive Kanna is another good option for end grain work like that.

    My reservation about the Veritas custom BD planes is the Norris adjuster. I'm sure it works ok but the Bailey style is superior IMO. So that would steer me towards Lie Nielsen, though I am not the biggest fan of A2 irons. I prefer either V11 or high carbon steel (I have a Hock O1 in my LN #4).

  3. #18
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    Hi Dan,

    I'd recommend the #4, 5, 7 combination. If you don't buy all premium, a vintage #5 will do everything a premium #5 will do, with or without a replacement blade. A well tuned chipbreaker is a wonder but not hard to achieve. (fwiw, I have LN #4 and vintage #5 and #7 stanleys with hock/pmv blades. And the LV shooter, which I definitely recommend).

    Best of luck.
    "You can observe a lot just by watching."
    --Yogi Berra

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Kraakenes View Post
    So..
    Custom BD for more experienced.
    Chipbreaker - a bit more cumbersome sharpening.


    BU/LA for beginners or a lot of tropical wood.
    No shipbreaker - faster and easier sharpening
    Most of the Bevel Down irons are easier to sharpen freehand. If one wants, the chip breaker can be slid back on the blade while sharpening. Stanley may have suggested this is some of their publications.

    My Bevel Up blades are thick enough to experience stiction on a flat water stone.

    That said, I do get tearout occasionally with my BD planes, but have learned to either clean it up with a scraper or sand it out.
    A way of overcoming tear out that works for me is to have the plane's blade as sharp as possible and to take a shaving as thin as possible. In some cases there is still a part of the surface with a satin finish from reversing grain. It has worked to then take a shaving or two in the opposite direction to turn the satin feeling area into a glossy area.

    I think the bu statement about beginners and tropical woods is not right.
    I'd recommend the #4, 5, 7 combination. If you don't buy all premium, a vintage #5 will do everything a premium #5 will do, with or without a replacement blade. A well tuned chipbreaker is a wonder but not hard to achieve.
    Agreed.

    For many years my LN LA BU Jack was mainly used for shooting. Now with a Veritas Shooting Plane it doesn't get a lot of work. Since shooting planes are made left or right handed my LA BU Jack will likely be saved for those times when it is better to do the shooting from the other side.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  5. #20
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    Im currently used to a #4, but I have to large hands for it, so was first thinking of upgrading to a 4 1/2.
    Dan, where do you call home? You may live near another member who is willing to let you take a test drive with their planes.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Hazelwood View Post
    I recommend bevel down planes...

    My reservation about the Veritas custom BD planes is the Norris adjuster. I'm sure it works ok but the Bailey style is superior IMO. So that would steer me towards Lie Nielsen, though I am not the biggest fan of A2 irons. I prefer either V11 or high carbon steel (I have a Hock O1 in my LN #4).
    Though sometimes I enjoy the feel of using my BU jack, I find BD planes easier to use (once you solve them*). *which isn’t hard but is slightly harder than BU in my experience.

    I agree with you on the Norris adjuster. I bought a 5.5 custom and I’m given it as much time as I can stomach but the adjustment still feels kludgey to me. I’m also trying a pmv11 blade in my LN 4 but it’s too early to say if I consider it a huge boon.

  7. #22
    Thanks for all the replies!!

    I put in a order yesterday for the Veritas
    BU Smoother
    LA Jack ( shouldn't I just call it a BU Jack???)
    BU Jointer
    Scrub plane

    And for the savings compared to the LN 4 1/2, 5 1/2, 7, I got the Veritas Shooting plane for "free"..

    All with PM-V11 steel.


    I purchased a 60 1/2 block, 102 Block, Large shoulder and router plane from LN though.. vastly prefer the looks of those.
    So now all my planes are actually BU... I figure I will become very proficient in sharpening microlevels. :P
    And cambers



    But it felt kind of strange after ordering them, seeing so many of you suggesting BD planes, even after owning and using BU planes for years.


    .

  8. #23
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    But it felt kind of strange after ordering them, seeing so many of you suggesting BD planes, even after owning and using BU planes for years.
    My BD planes are all older Stanley/Bailey planes. They were much less expensive when most of mine were purchased. Other than the #1 & #2 they were all less than $50. Only the #8 cost $50. Most were less, even my #10-1/4 only cost $25.

    Of course, none of my planes look anywhere as nice as a new plane.

    Besides, if you got the LV planes with the same size blade you can have one set of blades to use in all three planes.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Kraakenes View Post
    And for the savings compared to the LN 4 1/2, 5 1/2, 7, I got the Veritas Shooting plane for "free"..

    All with PM-V11 steel.
    I'm not super experienced. But I love my Veritas Shooting plane. I've only done the initial sharpening and so far it cuts great after 4 projects (PM-V11 blade).
    I actually used the LN shooting board plans to make my shooting board. Also very happy with it.

    I have 2 bevel up planes from Veritas, but I have yet to even remove the factory rust preventing oil from them.

  10. #25
    So.. with the wealth of knowledge here.

    What recommended angles should the different Bevel up / Low Angle planes be set up with, for their "normal" tasks.

    Smoother Nice grain:
    Smoother Difficult grain:

    6-8degree camber per Derek Cohens writeup
    Jack: Nice grain:
    Jack: Difficult grain:

    Jointer Nice grain:
    Jointer Difficult grain:
    Last edited by Dan Kraakenes; 08-11-2020 at 8:41 AM.

  11. #26
    I have used these angles for over forty years:

    Smoother 45 degrees, 42 degrees

    Jack plane 43 degrees

    Trying plane 43 degrees

    Jointer plane 45 degrees


    The lower the angle the better, but there needs to be roughly 12 degrees of clearance. Having the bed at 45 degrees gives some cushion for a higher honing angle, whether by design or from sloppiness. The lower the bedding angle, the more precise the honing angle needs to be.

  12. #27
    For Bevel up / Low angle planes?

  13. #28
    Join Date
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    My Veritas Custom #7 has a 40 degree frog/bed. The Veritas Custom #4 has a 42 degree frog/bed. Blades for both are honed at 30 degrees. 10- and 12 degrees clearance. Never been an issue. The strike block plane I built is bevel down with a 37 degree bed and a 25 degree blade (12 degrees clearance).

    I recall that Leonard Lee wrote that 7 degrees was the lower limit for clearance.

    I understand and agree with the reasoning that a lower cutting angle should leave a smoother finish. I also can take a BD and chipbreakered plane where a BU plane cannot go. Yet I cannot fault the finish on local hardwoods off a Veritas BU Smoother with a 62 degree cutting angle. And for many years high cutting angles were my first choice and more than excellent on serious interlocked wood ... which I very much doubt is seen by the average woodworker.

    I find it interesting that we obsess so over planes to such a degree. I do love it as much as the next person, but it is all so overkill ... once the finish is on, who can tell ....

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  14. #29
    I think u are talking about the blades not beds, which aren’t adjustable on the bevel ups anyway. I experimented with angles and ended up doing 25 with a micro. You can do a 35-40 for difficult grains if you wish but I find it hard to push. I prefer the bevel down in that case.

    Imho, start with the basic, 25 and a micro (optional) and hone your sharpening skills. A sharp 25 trumps a dull 35 any day.

    If and when you want a steeper blade, I'll echo advice I was given (I think by Derek): do all your primary bevels at your basic (25 degrees) angle, and use the micro bevel to adjust the steepness.
    Last edited by Prashun Patel; 08-11-2020 at 9:08 AM.

  15. #30
    Join Date
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    I have a old stanly #5 set up with a very curved iron that I use as a fore plane, a LV BU jointer, a LV BU jack, a LV custom #4 (set up as in Derek's review), a Lie-Nielson #3 (50 deg. frog). I use them all, but for different things. As far as smoothing goes, the LV custom #4 does the "best" overall smoothing job. However, my preference is for a smaller smoother and prefer the size of the #3. I wish LV made the custom plane in a #3 size. So often, I find myself reaching for the #3 simply because I prefer its size. For smoothing, I prefer the BD irons and would recommend BD irons for smoothing. (However, that said, I really like my BU jointer and am not sure that I'd trade that for a BD plane. I like the BU geometry of the plane and find it easier to use as a jointer due to its lower center of gravity. I use my BU jack as a "small jointer" and not as a jack plane is typically used.)

    I've used my BU jointer as a smoothing plane (before I had the #4 and #3). It worked ok, but the BD planes that I have perform much better as a smoother.

    If your main concern is handle size, the LV custom planes have a few handle options and if none of those work for you, it would be pretty easy to make one to fit your hand. Personally, I would change plane type to the LV custom plane rather than go to a 4 1/2 smoother.

    I would like to reduce the number of planes that I have to maintain, but so far am unwilling to part with any. Sooner or later, though, I probably will eliminate one or more. I like having only three bench planes to maintain.

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