Carcase vs Dovetail saw

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Mark,

I use it mostly for crosscutting and occasionally for cutting tenons. I bought it at the first Handworks from Joel at the Gramercy booth. He was demonstrating how well the saw crosscut and ripped. It's been a good all around saw to keep at the bench.

Cliff

[Steve Voigt]

After thinking more about this, one more thought. I have a short dovetail rip saw that I use for 3/16" - 1/2" thick drawer sides and backs. That is by far the most common dovetail work I do (volume wise) and that saw is great for that work, practically cuts the dovetails by itself while I drink coffee or swab sweat with the other hand. But, if I use it for cutting the tails on a clamped-up, double thickness carcase sides, it sucks. Too short, too fine and the blade heats up. Instead, I use a standard rip saw for that work.

Dave, I think your method is in line with what an 18th c. joiner would have done. There is a solid argument that what was called a dovetail saw in 18th c. England was for cutting drawer dovetails, as you suggest. A carcase saw would have been used for the carcase dovetails. Really, why else would it have been called a carcase saw? What else are you going to use a backsaw for on a carcase, other than to cut the DTs?

Bringing it back to the OP's question, if a 12" saw feels good to you for case construction, use it.

[Mike Allen1010]

Mark, you've raised in excellent, practical question. As Ron and Steve mentioned, descriptions of backed, joinery saws like "dovetail", "carcass", "tennon", "sash" can be confusing. No doubt there are historically accurate definitions for traditional configurations/dimensions of these saws. However in my experience those historical descriptions aren't always uniformly applied today.

FWIW, I think a helpful way to approach this issue is considering the three primary furniture/cabinetmaking tasks for backed, rip filed joinery saws.

1) Dovetails in thinner stock (3/4" and below). Typically drawers.

2) Dovetails in 4/4 and thicker stock – typically carcasses.

3) Tenon cheeks. These are typically wider and longer than above DT sawing tasks.


IMHO, each of the sawing tasks is optimally done with a different size/configuration of saw. For me, the key metric that determines the optimal saw characteristics for these tasks is the thickness of the stock and the length of the cut. In general, thicker stock (>4/4) and longer cuts are better/easier done with thicker/longer saw plates. Why? – Longer cuts and thicker stock remove more wood, require more energy and generate more heat which can defeat a 9" long .015" thick saw plate. These cuts are faster/more easily done with fewer strokes with 14" x 31/2" w x .025" thick saw plate. Conversely, the same 9" long, .015"-.020" thick saw plate offers advantages sawing 1/2" thick drawer DTs; light and maneuverable, thinner kerf = less wood removed = faster/more accurate sawing.

In the interest of moving from bloviating about theoretical concepts to providing some practical (and hopefully usable) information to the OP, and at the risk of suffering the slings and arrows of those who may differ, my preference for these three tasks:

1) Dovetails in thinner stock (3/4" and below) -Typically drawers: ~9"-10" L x ~1'-11/2" wide x ~.015"-.020" thick

2) Dovetails in 4/4 and thicker stock – typically carcasses. 12'-14" L x ~2 1/2" W x ~.020"- .025" T

3) Tenon cheeks. These are typically wider and longer than above DT sawing tasks. ~14-16"L x ~3 1/2" W x .025" T.

Of course any of these sawing tasks can be done with any ripsaw. My only intent in sharing my preferences is to offer some guidance about what size saw IMHO, is best suited to these tasks, for those who might be sincerely unsure about what option is best for their needs.

One last general observation FWIW, my experience is as a sawyer's experience/confidence grows, they tend to prefer larger saws, and in some cases thinner plates because they have the skill to saw accurately to the layout line without damaging a the saw plate and the larger saw allows them to do that more quickly.

Obviously the reasonable people can disagree. I gladly defer to those with different experience/preferences and welcome the thoughts and comments from the many here on SMC with infinitely more knowledge and expertise than me. One additional issue relevant to those trying to decide what saw best suits their needs that I have addressed is pitch/PPI. I'm interested to hear what others have to say on that topic.

Mark thanks again for your relevant and provocative question. I hope my comments are helpful and are accepted in the spirit in which they're offered.

Best, Mike

[Ron Bontz]

Well, I don't know what an 8.5 surgical glove relates to with respect to hand width/ size. If you should be near Edwardsville, IL. and so inclined you are certainly welcome to try a few of my collection. I have a Wenzloff, Bad Axe, and Veritas. Sorry, I sold my Gramercy and lie Nielsen some time back. My hand, however, may not be the right size at 3.75" wide. Always ready to put on a fresh cup of Maxwell House. And lets not forget the french vanilla creamer.

[Ron Bontz]

"the slings and arrows of those who may differ,"
That was a pretty good one.
Best wishes

[mike stenson]

Well, I don't know what an 8.5 surgical glove relates to with respect to hand width/ size

It's pretty much a large, on the larger side of large.. basically about my hand size. I have no problems with a dovetail saw, the one I use most often is an earlier LN. That's used for drawers.

[Prashun Patel]

You've got some masterclass responses below. My 2 cents...

I own a fine tooth dovetail saw and a coarser one, as well as a carcass saw and a tenon saw.

I have come to appreciate being able to size the saw to the work. A taller plate is required for a deeper cut, but makes cutting shallow, straight cuts more difficult than a well sharpened dovetail saw. The dovetail saw is easier to start too - something I appreciate on dovetails; no use marking precisely if I can't start the saw precisely.

[bill epstein]

I haven't done dovetails in awhile but settled on using my $30 Gyuchko Ryoba and then the New Concepts to cut away the waste right down to the line. In fact, the Ryoba is pretty much all I use for everything. Just the other day I had to trim about 1/2" off some 2X construction lumber and made short work with the Ryoba. For Tenons, and really anything else, can't be beat.

[Ron Bontz]

Thanks, Mike.