Anyone have experience using India Ink as a wood dye?

[Brian Hummel]

I'm having some issues with streaks and spots using india ink on ash.

I have a large 6'x3' ash tabletop that I prepped for dye by sanding with a ROS from 80, 120,150 and 220...then finished by handsanding 220 with the grain. Vacuumed and use compressed air between grits. Next I raised the grain: applied distilled water, let dry and then lightly removed whiskers with a 3M ultra fine pad, did this twice...grain really didn't raise the second time...vacuum, compressed air, wiped with denatured alcohol and let dry....on to the india ink.

I painted the first coat of india ink on with a foam brush, wiped it off with a blue shop towel, let it dry and the results turned out pretty good although an additional coat would be necessary. I decided to use a clean, lint-free rag to wipe on the second coat so that I could rub the dye into the grain better. The second coat went on a little different, the ink was harder to spread and it seemed to be "setting up" quicker.

I'm not sure what technique people tend to use....either flood the india ink on, let it sit for some time (how long?) and wipe off (?)...or...paint it on thin and let it dry. By the time I had applied ink to the whole table and began to wipe off the excess, the ink seemed to be "setting up" and when wiping I could see streaks being left, almost like the ink was smearing...and it dried with those streaks visually present and lighter in tone. They don't burnish or sand out either.

Once an intial coat of india ink has been applied and dried, it seems that a second coat can do strange things like pulling the dye up and leaving lighter marks. When applying the second coat, if some drops of ink were to splatter or fall on the table ahead and sit for a moment, by the time I wiped them there would be lighter toned dots left, similar to the streaks from wiping.

Can anybody comment from experience using india ink, why it is that additional coats can leave lighter marks overall. Is the problem that I'm trying to apply it to such a large surface in warm temperatures 80-90 degrees? Any way to correct this without sanding it down to bare wood again?

On my test pieces of ash, the dye went on with three coats beautifully. The test pieces were small, though, not the size of a tabletop.

I've attached pictures to demonstrate what I'm seeing. These streaks and spots are not issue in the wood, as they were not present after the first coat of ink.

Thank you for your feedback!!!

[chuck van dyck]

Hey all, I wanted to bring this back to life because I’m having the exact same issue. I don’t want to move on to osmo black until I get a decent looking dye job. Anyone have any experience?
I have iron acetate, gf black, etc, just trying to figure out this method because I really dig the true deep black and can achieve. It just sets up so quickly after the first coat.

[chuck van dyck]

I'm having some issues with streaks and spots using india ink on ash.

I have a large 6'x3' ash tabletop that I prepped for dye by sanding with a ROS from 80, 120,150 and 220...then finished by handsanding 220 with the grain. Vacuumed and use compressed air between grits. Next I raised the grain: applied distilled water, let dry and then lightly removed whiskers with a 3M ultra fine pad, did this twice...grain really didn't raise the second time...vacuum, compressed air, wiped with denatured alcohol and let dry....on to the india ink.

I painted the first coat of india ink on with a foam brush, wiped it off with a blue shop towel, let it dry and the results turned out pretty good although an additional coat would be necessary. I decided to use a clean, lint-free rag to wipe on the second coat so that I could rub the dye into the grain better. The second coat went on a little different, the ink was harder to spread and it seemed to be "setting up" quicker.

I'm not sure what technique people tend to use....either flood the india ink on, let it sit for some time (how long?) and wipe off (?)...or...paint it on thin and let it dry. By the time I had applied ink to the whole table and began to wipe off the excess, the ink seemed to be "setting up" and when wiping I could see streaks being left, almost like the ink was smearing...and it dried with those streaks visually present and lighter in tone. They don't burnish or sand out either.

Once an intial coat of india ink has been applied and dried, it seems that a second coat can do strange things like pulling the dye up and leaving lighter marks. When applying the second coat, if some drops of ink were to splatter or fall on the table ahead and sit for a moment, by the time I wiped them there would be lighter toned dots left, similar to the streaks from wiping.

Can anybody comment from experience using india ink, why it is that additional coats can leave lighter marks overall. Is the problem that I'm trying to apply it to such a large surface in warm temperatures 80-90 degrees? Any way to correct this without sanding it down to bare wood again?

On my test pieces of ash, the dye went on with three coats beautifully. The test pieces were small, though, not the size of a tabletop.

I've attached pictures to demonstrate what I'm seeing. These streaks and spots are not issue in the wood, as they were not present after the first coat of ink.

Thank you for your feedback!!!

Did you ever figure this out?

[Frederick Skelly]

I used india ink on poplar. I painted the ink on with a foam brush and let it dry. I did not wipe it - I let it all absorb/dry. Did a light sanding with (literally) a brown paper bag, then put on a second coat of ink. It came out jet black and very evenly dyed. I like the look because the grain shows through - it doesnt look like paint.

20171013_115348.jpg

[chuck van dyck]

I used india ink on poplar. I painted the ink on with a foam brush and let it dry. I did not wipe it - I let it all absorb/dry. Did a light sanding with (literally) a brown paper bag, then put on a second coat of ink. It came out jet black and very evenly dyed. I like the look because the grain shows through - it doesnt look like paint.

20171013_115348.jpg

Nice! Did you find that the second coat got sticky VERY quick? I’m also using a foam brush but finding that some smoothing out with brush or rag was necessary, which then left streaks. I tried not smoothing out to see if it would self fix, it dried thick and gloppy. I sanded it back smootb and am now on 3rd coat. Hoping that I can just steel wool it back smooth tomorrow and add osmo.

[Frederick Skelly]

I dont remember any problem with it getting sticky. But I had a few days between coats, just because of my work schedule.

[Brian Hummel]

Did you ever figure this out?

Sadly, I did not. After the first attempt, I painstakingly sanded the table back down to as close as I could to raw wood and attempted again but I was still having issues. Namely:

1. During the first coat, if I didn't wipe expess india ink off after applying, it would dry in opaque raised lumps that would not sand out completely.
2. During the second coat, if I wiped excess ink after applying it would sometimes leave white streaks. If I left the excess ink to dry, there would again be thick splotchy areas that would not sand out cleanly.

The table is ash. My prep was always: progressively sand to 220, raise the grain a couple of times, one final 220 pass, vacuum with brush, wipe cleaned with naptha, dry overnight. (Perhaps the Naptha has some residue in it that didn't evaporate) I have tried both applying thin coats and doing flood coats. Wiping and not wiping off excess ink.

I'm not sure if it's the size of the tabletop and the environmental conditions that were a problem but it seems to me that the second coat of india ink was somehow reacting with the first coat in an odd way that I presumed was in some way a consequence of the shellac.

I was using this Speedball India Ink from Amazon

I've attempted the India Ink twice on this ash tabletop and both times have been not so perfect. The table has been sitting around for months now and I'm not sure what to do with it. Sand it all the way back down and do something else or not.

[chuck van dyck]

Sounds exactly like my experience. I'm working on small 3-legged stools in ash. I'll let ya know how it goes tomorrow. I was able to smooth the 1st and 2nd coat a bit using a gray scotchbrite. I've had the exact same thought though, that the shellac is the culprit of it tacking up so quickly. I was wondering if either a thinner would help in the application, or if it could be rubbed out some with denatured alcohol once dry.

Sadly, I did not. After the first attempt, I painstakingly sanded the table back down to as close as I could to raw wood and attempted again but I was still having issues. Namely:

1. During the first coat, if I didn't wipe expess india ink off after applying, it would dry in opaque raised lumps that would not sand out completely.
2. During the second coat, if I wiped excess ink after applying it would sometimes leave white streaks. If I left the excess ink to dry, there would again be thick splotchy areas that would not sand out cleanly.

The table is ash. My prep was always: progressively sand to 220, raise the grain a couple of times, one final 220 pass, vacuum with brush, wipe cleaned with naptha, dry overnight. (Perhaps the Naptha has some residue in it that didn't evaporate) I have tried both applying thin coats and doing flood coats. Wiping and not wiping off excess ink.

I'm not sure if it's the size of the tabletop and the environmental conditions that were a problem but it seems to me that the second coat of india ink was somehow reacting with the first coat in an odd way that I presumed was in some way a consequence of the shellac.

I was using this Speedball India Ink from Amazon

I've attempted the India Ink twice on this ash tabletop and both times have been not so perfect. The table has been sitting around for months now and I'm not sure what to do with it. Sand it all the way back down and do something else or not.

[Frederick Skelly]

I think I missed something you said earlier - I didnt understand that you are putting shellac on this.

FWIW, here's my experience in case it helps somehow.....
* If you put shellac on before the dye, it will partially seal the wood's pores and effect how much dye it will absorb. That can effect the color you're able to get.
* If you put shellac on top of the dye - and the dye is alcohol-based - the denatured alcohol in shellac may be re-wetting the dye. I'm not 100% certain, but something similar happened to me using Transtint dissolved in DNA. I dont recall if india ink is alcohol based.

YMMV. I'm certainly not an expert - just relating what I've experienced and my interpretation.

I hope you find a solution.
Fred

[Paul F Franklin]

My only experience is with speedball india ink on cherry, used for the drawer pulls on my cabinets and desks. I sanded the pulls to 180 and then applied the ink with a foam brush. It soaked in evenly and quickly and I didn't wipe anything off (there really was no need as it soaked in quickly). I let them dry for several hours and then just very lightly hit them with 3M superfine foam backed pads. I didn't feel the need to apply a second coat as the color was dark and even. Then I applied three coats of Enduro-Var satin. They came out evenly solid black. They are not glossy as I used a satin topcoat, but I'm sure a gloss topcoat would have worked fine. When I was researching how to do all this, I found several folks said the speedball ink worked better than some others. And others cautioned against sanding to too high a grit.

[John TenEyck]

Do we have two different processes being used here, one using shellac first, the other not? I'm a little confused (not unusual). In any case, with regards to the OP's schedule, I would not sand that fine or raise the grain before applying the India ink. Both tend to seal up the grain and make it harder for the ink to absorb. I would stop at 150 grit for ash, 180 maximum, vacuum, and then apply the ink with a brush, I would not wipe it off either. If the wood grain is open enough the ink will soak in. If you need to apply two coats you need to let the first coat dry really well so that the solvent in the ink doesn't lift the first coat. Whether or not you need to sand between coats is likely determined by how the wood reacts. If the grain raises really badly, then yes, otherwise, a little roughness will get buried in the finish coats. The ink also needs to be applied without going back and forth over it too much or it will do the same thing. And I wouldn't wipe it. Spraying would make it so much easier.

Flexner describes using India ink as a base coat followed by rattle can lacquer. I've used black lacquer alone many times on red oak, for example, and it works well; nice uniform black and the grain still shows through. Adding India ink to the schedule should give some additional protection from dings.

Shellac is going to cause problems with absorption of the ink, as already stated, so I wouldn't use it before the ink. I've always applied the ink to raw wood. If you are applying everything by hand you need to test for compatibility on scrap. Shellac might pull up the ink if working by hand so you would need to use a different sealer, perhaps Seal-A-Cell. If spraying, shellac should be fine as a sealer.

Having said all that, open grain woods where grain raising with waterborne products is a real concern are often times better dealt with by avoiding them. I've had great results on white oak with SW's BAC Wiping Stains, including black.




Something to consider.

John

[chuck van dyck]

Thanks!

In the particular india ink we both used, speedball, shellac is part of the bottled solution.

Do we have two different processes being used here, one using shellac first, the other not? I'm a little confused (not unusual). In any case, with regards to the OP's schedule, I would not sand that fine or raise the grain before applying the India ink. Both tend to seal up the grain and make it harder for the ink to absorb. I would stop at 150 grit for ash, 180 maximum, vacuum, and then apply the ink with a brush, I would not wipe it off either. If the wood grain is open enough the ink will soak in. If you need to apply two coats you need to let the first coat dry really well so that the solvent in the ink doesn't lift the first coat. Whether or not you need to sand between coats is likely determined by how the wood reacts. If the grain raises really badly, then yes, otherwise, a little roughness will get buried in the finish coats. The ink also needs to be applied without going back and forth over it too much or it will do the same thing. And I wouldn't wipe it. Spraying would make it so much easier.

Flexner describes using India ink as a base coat followed by rattle can lacquer. I've used black lacquer alone many times on red oak, for example, and it works well; nice uniform black and the grain still shows through. Adding India ink to the schedule should give some additional protection from dings.

Shellac is going to cause problems with absorption of the ink, as already stated, so I wouldn't use it before the ink. I've always applied the ink to raw wood. If you are applying everything by hand you need to test for compatibility on scrap. Shellac might pull up the ink if working by hand so you would need to use a different sealer, perhaps Seal-A-Cell. If spraying, shellac should be fine as a sealer.

Having said all that, open grain woods where grain raising with waterborne products is a real concern are often times better dealt with by avoiding them. I've had great results on white oak with SW's BAC Wiping Stains, including black.




Something to consider.

John

[John TenEyck]

Well that's curious. The Speedball India Ink I use is water based.

John

[Paul F Franklin]

Well that's curious. The Speedball India Ink I use is water based.

John

Well I had to go and look, but the speedball super black I used does say "contains shellac"

[chuck van dyck]

I think next time I attempt this I will try my damnedest to get one nice solid coat. First coat went on like a dream and actually looked pretty good. Second coat was a nightmare. There was some unstained spots deep in the grain where the surface tension of the ink wouldn’t let it get in there. Maybe first cost india ink, second coat like GF onyx or something.