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Thread: Request for crowd source solution: Help me select new sharpening stones?

  1. #1
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    Request for crowd source solution: Help me select new sharpening stones?

    I apologize in advance for my forthcoming sharpening question – I know there are multiple previous threads on this topic. My bad for not learning from them! I want to ask a very specific question in hopes of learning from the collective intelligence of the SMC community. – Please forgive me for my sin of creating a sharpening thread!

    I over the last 40 years I've gone through lots of different sharpening stones – all primarily water stones – King, Sigma power stones, Shapton etc. My most recent set up was set of three Shapton Pro stones – can't remember the grits - yellow, purple, lighter yellow. I really love the coarse and middle stones – easy to flatten, cut quickly. My biggest challenge was that the finishing stone was soft. The upside was you could really feel the cutting edge interacting with the stone, downside was it was easy to stick/catch the edge of the blade in the sharpening surface and it took some time to soak prior to first use.

    Once my Shaptonc Pro finishing stone got so thin it broke, I replaced it with a SpyderCo "ultrafine" stone I had rattled around the shop. Again my apologies I can't remember the specific grits etc. - My stone is snow white. It cuts quickly and I very much appreciate it's a much "harder" sharpening surface that also provides good feedback through your hands – not something easily gouged. I also like it doesn't require a lot of prior soaking prior to use. My challenges with the Spyderco ultrafine stone that I otherwise enjoy, are: removing the wire edge on the flat cutting surface seems to leave the steel fragments embedded in the stone. In subsequent passes I can feel the steel embedded in the stone interacting with the cutting edge – not good. Secondly, it seems hard to keep it flat. Admittedly I have an old Atoma flattening plate that I think came with a set of Sigma power stones. Probably time to replace it (I appreciate any advice/suggestions)?

    Problem is the coarser grit Shapton stones flatten easily with the Atoma plate. However the, Spyderco ultrafine seems to resist flattening – seems like there's always a hollow area in the center the stone untouched after multiple passes with Atoma flattening plate.

    Sorry for the long preamble – I guess my ask is: what are your suggestions for finishing stone that can easily be Flat, provides a fine, finished cutting edge (I'm more than willing to spend extra time to get sharpest possible edge tools), and is a firm surface less prone to gouging. Secondarily what should I use as a flattening stuff?

    At the risk of creating highlighting some kind of fundamental schism, I've never used oil stones. Could those be some kind of solution?

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions. Very much appreciate everyone's help!

    Best, Mike



    and also

  2. #2
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    King stones work fine for me.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Josko Catipovic View Post
    King stones work fine for me.
    The only King stone I have is a 1200 and I like it. Used it as only stone in commercial shop. As I have said before: in the
    1960s I worked with a couple of great cabinet makers who only used a Sears ...or Pep Boys carborundum stone. They could
    sharpen quickly and I never saw them strop. The Carborundum stones did not have grit numbers, but I think they are
    certainly finer than concrete blocks.

  4. #4
    Mike,

    I'm a fan of natural stones vs. synthetic for both honing and polishing. For grinding synthetic or diamond work well. I like oil stones and while slower cutting than synthetic water stones when stone maintenance is factored in they are just as fast doing the job. My favorite polishing stone is a medium hard JNAT. The steel used in your cutters is a factor, all my cutters are high carbon steel.

    I know dancing around your question but if I had to give an answer it would be find a stone dealer you can trust and get a JNAT for finishing. Even with a good dealer you might end up kissing a few frogs but it could be worth it.

    Drive to Tucson, I'll buy the beer, and spend a day or two with my stones. I've way too many of just about each kind, then you should be able to make an informed decision.

    ken

    ken

  5. #5
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    I assume stropping as the final operation is not in the picture? The green compound is appz ½ micron which translates to about as fine a grit as is usually found in the woodworking world. Have youried diamonds on steel or cast iron? Either film or loose would get you started. Power stropping works well for knives and longer edges. Long winded way of saying I have no answers.

  6. #6
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    Mike, I feel nervous giving you woodworking advice after seeing your work here, but to me your solution is obvious and easy.

    As I say often on SMC, I use the David Charlesworth method and it never fails me. My kit has always been two Norton waterstones: 220/1000 and 4000/8000 combination stones. My 1000 side is worn down to about 3/16" now, so I'm about to replace it with a King 1000, which David C. advises is comparable to the Norton. It's going to be years before I wear out the 8000, but when I do I'll buy a single 8000 grit, not the combo. (The 4000 only comes into play when I flatten the back of a new iron, not for resharpening.)

    For flattening the stones, I use wet/dry paper on a granite surface plate. Two comments: 1) My go-to sandpaper grit is 220 and it works just fine for all stones, but I've just run out so I'm using 320 for now, and it's working fine, too. 2) I also have a 1/2" x 12" x 12" float glass that works just as well, but I push pretty hard on the stones when I flatten. The glass has little non-slip pads on the bottom, so is the glass deforming? I can't really say. I suspected the granite would hold up better, so I went that way last year. Woodcraft charges too much for theirs but they occasionally put them on sale. I got my 2" x 9" x 12" plate for $30 plus tax, and even talked them into free shipping. Couldn't pass it up.

    To your specific question about the fine stone, the Norton 8000 is as fine as any edge iron needs. It only needs a spritz and a Nagura stone rub just before use (no soaking). It flattens really fast on the 220 wet/dry.

    The Charlesworth method seems to be fading out of memory –– judging by the balance of comments here ––only to be picked up by today's YouTube disciples. Trust me, it's the fastest, easiest way to get this done. I recently went into way too much detail about it in another post, including the full materials list with costs. If I find the link I'll post it for you.

    Good luck.
    Bob

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  8. #8
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    Mike,

    you don't seem to be asking about a new sharpening system / techniques, but rather for a finishing stone suggestion.

    My first thought (having seen your work) is, "If it 'ain't broke, don't fix it." You seemed happy with the Shapton Kuromaku/Pro* stone you had. The 12000 is very well reviewed and is light yellow in the web photos I see. (*Kuromaku in Japan & Pro in US apparently. With Amazon vendors I see either or both in listings.)

    The Sigma Power 13000, as recommended and sold by Stu, was very popular, but since he closed Tools from Japan I haven't seen it clearly identified in a for sale posting. (LV has the "Power Select II" 13000. I'm not sure it's the same thing.) L-N has a 10000 by Ohishi I've never paid any attention to, but their tools at their road shows are plenty sharp! The Shapton Kuromaku/Pro 8000 also has fans, but seem like you've been using higher grits to finish. The Sypderco UF shouldn't need flattening often, so if you otherwise like it, maybe have a go with coarse sandpaper, or belt sander, and then smooth it out with your diamond plate. I'd guess a hard ark would also work for you, if you're really open to changing systems. (I'll leave JNats to Ken & others. That's a slippery slope I'm aggressively avoiding! )

  9. #9
    For stone flattening, I'm using a Dia-flat lapping plate (made my DMT). I had some other thread here in SMC a few years ago where I was using the Norton flattening "stone". But it was pointed out that it isn't itself able to stay flat. I chucked it and went to the DMT plate. It isn't cheap, but one popular wood working author/instructor has apparently had one for a decade or so without replacement. Mine flattens stones in no time.

  10. #10
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    At the risk of creating highlighting some kind of fundamental schism, I've never used oil stones. Could those be some kind of solution?
    What kinds of steel or tools do you need to sharpen?

    Oilstones were a solution for me when the water in my shop would freeze in the winter. Even though we have been having some hot days, my water stones have been dry.

    My oilstones have been doing so well for most of my sharpening needs and so far have been a little less fuss than the water stones.

    The last time my water stones were used was to sharpen some A2 steel on my LN planes.

    PMv-11 seems to sharpen fine on oilstones.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post
    I apologize in advance for my forthcoming sharpening question – I know there are multiple previous threads on this topic. My bad for not learning from them! I want to ask a very specific question in hopes of learning from the collective intelligence of the SMC community. – Please forgive me for my sin of creating a sharpening thread!

    I over the last 40 years I've gone through lots of different sharpening stones – all primarily water stones – King, Sigma power stones, Shapton etc. My most recent set up was set of three Shapton Pro stones – can't remember the grits - yellow, purple, lighter yellow. I really love the coarse and middle stones – easy to flatten, cut quickly. My biggest challenge was that the finishing stone was soft. The upside was you could really feel the cutting edge interacting with the stone, downside was it was easy to stick/catch the edge of the blade in the sharpening surface and it took some time to soak prior to first use.

    Once my Shaptonc Pro finishing stone got so thin it broke, I replaced it with a SpyderCo "ultrafine" stone I had rattled around the shop. Again my apologies I can't remember the specific grits etc. - My stone is snow white. It cuts quickly and I very much appreciate it's a much "harder" sharpening surface that also provides good feedback through your hands – not something easily gouged. I also like it doesn't require a lot of prior soaking prior to use. My challenges with the Spyderco ultrafine stone that I otherwise enjoy, are: removing the wire edge on the flat cutting surface seems to leave the steel fragments embedded in the stone. In subsequent passes I can feel the steel embedded in the stone interacting with the cutting edge – not good. Secondly, it seems hard to keep it flat. Admittedly I have an old Atoma flattening plate that I think came with a set of Sigma power stones. Probably time to replace it (I appreciate any advice/suggestions)?

    Problem is the coarser grit Shapton stones flatten easily with the Atoma plate. However the, Spyderco ultrafine seems to resist flattening – seems like there's always a hollow area in the center the stone untouched after multiple passes with Atoma flattening plate.

    Sorry for the long preamble – I guess my ask is: what are your suggestions for finishing stone that can easily be Flat, provides a fine, finished cutting edge (I'm more than willing to spend extra time to get sharpest possible edge tools), and is a firm surface less prone to gouging. Secondarily what should I use as a flattening stuff?

    At the risk of creating highlighting some kind of fundamental schism, I've never used oil stones. Could those be some kind of solution?

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts and suggestions. Very much appreciate everyone's help!

    Best, Mike
    Mike, if you liked the Pro Shapton 12000, get another. I much prefer the Sigma 13000. The Sigma version sold by Lee Valley is perfectly good, excellent in fact if Stu's comments are to be taken as the last work here.

    From an old thread: "The Sigma Select II LV has (and not all the grits) are designed specifically for tough steels like powder metal and High speed steel. They chew through less tough steels in the same manner, and in my very limited experience may get the job done faster and easier than even diamonds manage."

    If you are having difficulty flattening your Spyderco, then you are not experiencing anything new I needed a new coarse diamond stone over 15 minutes to do the job both a Medium and an Ultra Fine. However, they have remained flat over 8 years now (I check periodically).

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  12. #12
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    My oilstones have been doing so well for most of my sharpening needs and so far have been a little less fuss than the water stones.
    Information was left out of this. My change to oilstones from water stones came after acquiring soft, hard and black Arkansas stones from Dan's Whetstones. Some softer Arkansas stones were already in my accumulation and a few more have been added.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 07-25-2020 at 6:46 PM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  13. #13
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    I recommend the Shapton Pro. I’m on my third Cream colored polishing stone I guess it’s the 12k?
    I don’t soak mine but use a lot of water. I also store them at a angle to dry and glue the cream one to a piece of glass when it starts getting thinner.
    Heres my sharpening station.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Aj

  14. #14
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    I have a Shapton Pro 12000 that flattens well on my Atoma 400. I leave the slurry before using it.

    I think the Shapton version with a glass backing plate is a different formulation.

  15. #15
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    Imagine telling people that you don’t like the Shapton pro finisher, only to be told to buy a Shapton pro finisher LOL!

    I have a Shapton 12k that is currently collecting dust in a drawer because I think it’s a lousy stone. The 8k is great. 12k, not so much.

    I’m with Ken on this one. If you are borderline obsessed with sharp tools (like me), and you don’t mind expending the effort to get there, you should really consider looking into a Japanese natural finisher. There’s really nothing quite like it. They work best on high carbon steel, however. If you have lots of A2 or powdered metal tools, you’d probably be better off staying with synthetics.
    ---Trudging the Road of Happy Destiny---

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