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Thread: Had the most pleasant shopping experience yesterday--

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Engel View Post
    ...Direct aerosol transmission is requires an actively infected person, with symptoms, in close contact with someone. There is also ample evidence that asymptomatic people and children do not shed virus...
    There might be circumstances when that's true but I'm not aware of them. As a general rule, asymptomatic (often that's really pre-symptomatic) carriers of a virus will shed the virus. In some cases they are more contagious during the pre-symptomatic phase.

    But IMO what's important isn't whether you can find wiggle room to talk yourself out of a safety precaution. It's like pointing a gun at someone and saying it's not loaded. Maybe it's not but considering the risk if you're wrong, don't point one at me. You might not think you'll give me this virus and you probably won't, but if you do I'm likely to die. Don't expect me to be happy taking that risk.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Engel View Post
    I don’t want to argue, but you can believe the CDC about masks or not. I obey our local mask ordinances, but I do not equate a mask with protection. I’ve read a study they estimate 65% effectiveness. What? How exactly do they measure that?

    Touching the mask/face IS a significant means of transfer. Are you taking your mask on/off with bare hands? Your hand could be contaminated. I see people wearing it under their nose. People wearing masks walking down a deserted sidewalk, driving in their care, riding a bike is evidence to me many people are either scared or have a misconception.

    Direct aerosol transmission is requires an actively infected person, with symptoms, in close contact with someone. There is also ample evidence that asymptomatic people and children do not shed virus.

    I stand by what I said about re-using/touching mask, and cloth masks being useless.

    If herd immunity is a valid concept (and it is) why are teenagers and 20 yr olds wearing masks

    The epidemic will end when it either burns through, herd immunity, a vaccine or the virus mutates & weakens.

    From the New England Journal of Medicine, May:

    “We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.“
    The whole article as printed in The New England Journal was confusing. They later printed this From the authors of the original article..
    “Universal Masking in the Covid-19 Era
    TO THE EDITOR
    We understand that some people are citing our Perspective article (published on April 1 at NEJM.org) as support for discrediting widespread masking. In truth, the intent of our article was to push for more masking, not less. It is apparent that many people with SARS-CoV-2 infection are asymptomatic or presymptomatic yet highly contagious and that these people account for a substantial fraction of all transmissions. Universal masking helps to prevent such people from spreading virus-laden secretions, whether they recognize that they are infected or not.”

    Last edited by Michael Weber; 07-19-2020 at 1:57 PM. Reason: Deleted footnote references
    My three favorite things are the Oxford comma, irony and missed opportunities

    The problem with humanity is: we have paleolithic emotions; medieval institutions; and God-like technology. Edward O. Wilson

  3. #33
    As to this graphic:
    cprob.jpg
    -I did a little research and found the missing number at the bottom is 1.5%...
    I also found a fact checking website that explained this graphic, and since it's an interesting read, I highly recommend it:

    https://www.statesman.com/news/20200...obabilityrsquo

    For those who prefer the short version:
    A viral social media image claims to show “contagion probabilities” in different scenarios depending on whether masks are worn.

    Experts agreed the image does convey an idea that is right: Wearing a mask is likely to interfere with the spread of COVID-19.
    But, although this message has a hint of accuracy, the image leaves out important details and context, namely the source for the contagion probabilities it seeks to illustrate. Experts said evidence for the specific probabilities doesn’t exist.

    We rate it Mostly False.
    In bold italics above, and the whole article in general, pretty much answered my question on 'protection factors'...
    ========================================
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  4. #34
    Alan, it has been pretty well documented that infected children do not shed the virus. That said, of course we should take safety precautions.

    Michael, lots of things have changed since April, including the intense political and social pressure for masking. What I think has been lost is COVID transmission requires close intimate contact.

    Casual contact walking through a store or an a sidewalk is very low risk, even without a mask.

    From NEJM “Universal Masking in the COVID-19 Era June, 2020:

    “A growing body of research shows that the risk of SARS-CoV-2 transmission is strongly correlated with the duration and intensity of contact: the risk of transmission among household members can be as high as 40%, whereas the risk of transmission from less intense and less sustained encounters is below 5%”

    This is without any PPE At all.
    Again, from the Article, (referring to the May article I cited previously):

    We did state in the article that “wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection,” but as the rest of the paragraph makes clear, we intended this statement to apply to passing encounters in public spaces, not sustained interactions within closed environments.“

    I am NOT saying don’t wear a mask, I am saying please do not think you are well protected. Be aware that re-using masks, touching the mask, taking it on and off, etc. are dangerous and can cause a transfer if the virus.

    Every time you take off your mask wash your hands or use hand sanitizer.

  5. #35
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    it has been pretty well documented that infected children do not shed the virus. That said, of course we should take safety precautions.
    My Google Fingers aren't working well at finding a link for this one. It looks like the science is still unsettled.

    Be aware that re-using masks, touching the mask, taking it on and off, etc. are dangerous and can cause a transfer if the virus.
    Maybe this is why some folks do not take their masks off while driving. For me going from one store to another a short drive away is no reason to take my mask off.

    It seems if a person isn't infected and removes their mask carefully it will not infect them as long as they haven't been breathed or coughed upon by people who are infected and not wearing masks.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 07-19-2020 at 4:15 PM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #36
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    Well I had a very disturbing, even disgusting, close encounter at a grocery store this morning while checking out. Nothing was said, I’m not confrontational, but arriving home I washed my hands and arms and then my face with antibacterial soap. If I’d had a tub of hand sanitizer I would have taken a dip. My city has passed an ordnance requiring masks in stores and certain other areas. It starts tomorrow. I’m very glad and hope it is enforced but I live in Arkansas. I don’t envy any employees charged with enforcement.
    My three favorite things are the Oxford comma, irony and missed opportunities

    The problem with humanity is: we have paleolithic emotions; medieval institutions; and God-like technology. Edward O. Wilson

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Engel View Post
    Alan, it has been pretty well documented that infected children do not shed the virus.
    Robert could you please show us the data on that?

    I even wear a mask around others who don't when we're in our yard. I'm very aware of what 6' looks like. Many people are not and kids of course don't maintain 6'.

    Masks are a valuable piece of gear that I started using years ago for woodworking. Now the virus adds to the desire to get better masks. Of course the more a mask protects, the more uncomfortable it is. As breathability goes up, protection goes down. Whether it's dust or virus. Valves help for dust, but even a valved respirator is not fun to wear.

    I'm surprised there is no way to get reviews or data on buying masks. Data like fit, breathability, and virus particle filtration would help. The n95 is proven but still unavailable. I wear surgical masks, but I'd like something with more protection.
    Last edited by Andrew Joiner; 07-19-2020 at 4:05 PM.
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  8. #38
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    I'm surprised there is no way to get reviews or data on buying masks.
    Masks are being made by many different people and companies. Almost impossible to even know what materials are being used day to day.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  9. #39
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    I will accept that there is some doubt of efficacy but with even a small amount of data that suggests masks reduce the likelihood of transmission, wearing a mask tells your neighbors you care about them. Doesn't that trump the political or inconvenience aspect of not wearing?
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Engel View Post
    Alan, it has been pretty well documented that infected children do not shed the virus.
    Robert's other statements have been pretty well refuted by others (and thank you to those others for helping to stop the spread of disinformation). As to the statement about children spreading the virus, the quoted material below is from a New York Times article published online yesterday:

    "In the heated debate over reopening schools, one burning question has been whether and how efficiently children can spread the virus to others.
    A large new study from South Korea offers an answer: Children younger than 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero. And those between the ages of 10 and 19 can spread the virus at least as well as adults do."

  11. #41
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    Children younger than 10 transmit to others much less often than adults do, but the risk is not zero.
    Are children younger than 10 less vocal than those older than 10?

    This would be an interesting subject to study.

    Though, "the risk is not zero" makes me wonder how many parents would want to send their children to school with a low chance they may become infected and bring a potentially deadly virus home with them?

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #42
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    It seems crazy that enough people are opposed to masks that Walmart would see a significant drop in customer visits. Those opposed to masks are going to find fewer and fewer places to shop as most of the big retail chains are starting to require masks. Target is requiring masks on Aug 1st. The largest grocery chain here has a sign at the door recommending masks and they sell masks for $1. It is silly they don't outright require masks. I wear a mask any time I visit a store out of respect for others.

    Menards has required masks for a couple of months and their sales don't seem to be down.

  13. #43
    Personally, I think scientific & medical journals are better sources of info than the NYT.

    A couple child related references:

    This article in Nature is one that addresses the transmission risk in children. As time goes by, more and more information is coming to light about the low risk of infection by children.

    The article "COVID-19 in Children and the Dynamics of Infection in Families" referenced here which has the latest conclusions about children & COVID transmission which back up my statement. Of course, you are free to draw your own conclusions.

    "The data are striking," said Dr. Raszka. "The key takeaway is that children are not driving the pandemic. After six months, we have a wealth of accumulating data showing that children are less likely to become infected and seem less infectious; it is congregating adults who aren't following safety protocols who are responsible for driving the upward curve."

    Quite remarkable is the one reference of a Swiss child that exposed over 80 other children and not one contracted COVID.

    Latest CDC data of Feb - July data:

    Of 97,459 of COVID deaths, people 65 and over account for 80% of all deaths

    Of those, the breakdown is
    >85 41%
    75-84 33%
    65-74 15%

    Age 24 and younger: 0.15%.

    Ages 5-14 14 deaths, or 0.014%. I am confident the # of death from influenza, accidents, cancer, etc. is many X this.

    Anyone who wants can keep their children home certainly can, but it is very clear the risk is extremely small, far outweighed by negative social, psychological & developmental consequences, not to mention many children live in bad home environments.

    I'm not intending to be controversial. I'm trying to point out there are valid sources of information that you don't have to be versed in science or medicine to understand.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill epstein View Post
    I will accept that there is some doubt of efficacy but with even a small amount of data that suggests masks reduce the likelihood of transmission, wearing a mask tells your neighbors you care about them. Doesn't that trump the political or inconvenience aspect of not wearing?
    One would think so, or at least hope so.

    What people miss is a fabric mask is not primary personal protective equipment. It reduces the amount of airflow out of their mouths, that lowers spread of air out of their lungs. It's fluid dynamics, not filtration.
    ~mike

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  15. #45
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    I look at masks as part of a system to better my odds. Think of it like a table saw.

    1. I have a Sawstop
    2. I have and use a guard with anyone kickback fingers.
    3. When needed, I have and use a roving knife
    4. I have and use push sticks
    5. I always stand a bit to on side in case of kickback
    6. I keep my floor relatively clean so I have good traction
    7. Im aware of my body position/center of gravity so that if it goes south, I won’t fall into the blade
    8. By habit, I pre-visualize the cut to anticipate obstruction, etc
    9. I have and use an out feed table

    none of these things, by themselves or in aggregate, can guarantee that I won’t get hurt. But each of these things improve my odds and are worth doing.

    It’s the same way with masks. That’s just one part (a big one) of a system that I hope will both reduce my odds of being infected and contribute to a lower transmission rate in the population. I also carry and use hand sanitizer. I limit my trips to stores. I order my groceries online for curbside pickup thereby reducing my time in the store. I order more stuff online than I ever have before.

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