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Thread: Skew rabbet woes

  1. #16
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    Update,
    Got everything tuned up and skew matches the angle of the bevel gauge. With a batten I was able to cut a nice shoulder, but not square.
    For some reason, even thought the iron angle now matches the angle of the mortise, it seems like the skew is even further off. What I mean by this is that now when I advance the iron, the right cutting tip sticks out way further then the left side of the skew. It the total cutting portion of the iron is not above the plane or even close. I would probably have to have the tip sticking up 1/8" for the whole cutting surface to be present. So I was only able to cut about a 1/4" rebate. I tried to cut a 1/2" wide rebate, but since the skew was so great it only cut a V groove near the batten and then stopped after a few strokes. I will post some pics tomorrow.

  2. #17
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    While we're talking about rebate planes. Do the current model stanley 12-978 work worth a darn? Reviews seem to say they need a ton of tuning, anyone with actual experience? Would I be better of trying to purchase a older model Stanley or even a wood fillister?

  3. #18
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    For some reason, even thought the iron angle now matches the angle of the mortise, it seems like the skew is even further off.
    You might have better results with marking the blades bevel angle with the blade in the plane. Some like to use a product called dykem blue on the blade and then a scratch awl to mark a line. For a one time situation you could cover the flat side of the blade with a felt tip marker to apply a scratch mark or mark the blade with a fine point marker. Then grind so the bevel is parallel to the line. Adjust as needed with a bench stone. The edge of the blade needs to be parallel to the sole or it will not cut square.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J Evans View Post
    While we're talking about rebate planes. Do the current model stanley 12-978 work worth a darn? Reviews seem to say they need a ton of tuning, anyone with actual experience? Would I be better of trying to purchase a older model Stanley or even a wood fillister?
    My preference is my Record #778. My knowledge of the Stanley 12-978 is nil. Is it possible for you to inspect the plane before purchase?

    If there were a current need for a rebate plane my choice would likely be one of the Veritas offerings. The left and right hand skew rebate planes seem to be calling me at times.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 07-10-2020 at 1:37 AM.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    You might have better results with marking the blades bevel angle with the blade in the plane. Some like to use a product called dykem blue on the blade and then a scratch awl to mark a line. For a one time situation you could cover the flat side of the blade with a felt tip marker to apply a scratch mark or mark the blade with a fine point marker. Then grind so the bevel is parallel to the line. Adjust as needed with a bench stone. The edge of the blade needs to be parallel to the sole or it will not cut square.



    My preference is my Record #778. My knowledge of the Stanley 12-978 is nil. Is it possible for you to inspect the plane before purchase?

    If there were a current need for a rebate plane my choice would likely be one of the Veritas offerings. The left and right hand skew rebate planes seem to be calling me at times.

    jtk
    Thanks Jim. I marked it with a sharpie and then took a awl and scribed a precise line with my awl. I then ground it close with my grinder and finished off the final little bit by hand. I did try to put a semi hollow grind in it with the grinder, may have messed up that portion as I just have a cheap 6" grinder with a dinky fence. But once I was finished the skew angle matched the bevel gauge angle.

    Does the actual bevel angle matter at all? Or just that the cutting portion matches the mortise angle of the plane?

    I don't have a particular need for a rabbet plane, just practicing making some boxes and wanted to try setting the lid and bottom in. I know this can be done in other ways as well, I just figured the rabbet plane would come in handy. I seem to read and see quite a few videos, where they call the rabbet plane "essential". In regards to veritas plane, I am sure it works fantastic. Its just about 150 more than I would ever want to spend. My most expensive tool ive purchase to date was 190. Maybe one day I'll treat myself.

  5. #20
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    Does the actual bevel angle matter at all? Or just that the cutting portion matches the mortise angle of the plane?

    I don't have a particular need for a rabbet plane, just practicing making some boxes and wanted to try setting the lid and bottom in. I know this can be done in other ways as well, I just figured the rabbet plane would come in handy. I seem to read and see quite a few videos, where they call the rabbet plane "essential".
    The most important factor of the bevel angel is that it is at least ~10º less than the bedding angle of the plane. The wood can bulge up slightly behind the blade as it is being cut. Without a bit of relief behind the edge the blade could ride up and out of the cut.

    Oops, forgot about the usefulness of rabbet planes. They are useful for setting in panels or even making panels that will go in to frames for doors or sides of cabinets.

    It all depends on what you want to make.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 07-10-2020 at 10:12 AM. Reason: wording
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #21
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    Give me a day....I'll do a bit of picture taking with the No.181

    One other plane to consider.....the Stanley No. 45......as well as the #78.
    Plane Til Doors, rebate planed.JPG
    On my skew rebate plane....the corners do stick out a hair....because the wood corner has been rounded over from use.

    I'll dig it out later today....and find out what the bevel's angle is....and such. I usually try to keep the edge of the iron and the edge of the plane the same.

  7. #22
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    "What I mean by this is that now when I advance the iron, the right cutting tip sticks out way further then the left side of the skew. It the total cutting portion of the iron is not above the plane or even close. I would probably have to have the tip sticking up 1/8" for the whole cutting surface to be present."

    You've fallen into the same trap laid for us all: how to sharpen something with multiple compound angles.

    I thrashed around with this same problem, rehabilitating a Dado plane. My solution was to file the blade - while it was inserted in the plane body.

    The irons in my planes are antique and quite "soft".

    Not just marking out contours *use the plane body* as a guide. Masking tape covers the sole and sides of the plane, the file rides flat on those surfaces.

    Once a clear "flat" is established, the iron can be honed on finer stones.

    ***

    One caution - the tape will wear and require replacement.

  8. #23
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    Not feeling too well...but...I tried out the Auburn No. 181, 1.25" rebate plane...to see what it has that works. I set up a test track, pine, as there wasn't enough Ash sitting around.

    Marked a line about 1/2" in from the edge.
    Auburn 181, test track.JPG
    Deepened the line, for the plane to follow..
    Auburn 181, wall cutter.JPG
    Then ran the plane for a while..
    Auburn 181, making shavings.JPG
    That big, old knot was affecting the grain a bit
    Auburn 181, rebate made.JPG
    Took the plane apart ( edge needed a touch-up, anyway)
    Auburn 181, iron.JPG
    A single, 30 degree bevel....
    Auburn 181, assembled.JPG
    Wedge is angled to match the way the iron sits.....there is a gap right behind the edge, though
    Auburn 181, gap, high spot.JPG
    While the side on the cutting side/cheek is flat...including the iron..
    Auburn181, straight sides.JPG
    The area of the sole ahead of the iron is higher than the back end...yet from the iron on back, it is level.....I guess so the iron will be easy to start the cut.

    Twas a Barn-find, for $10.....seems to work well enough....

  9. #24
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    Thanks Steven for the pics.
    I am going to regrind the skew angle. I'm not sure if this was a better way to match the skew of the plane, but I advanced the iron until the entire cutting edge was above the sole. I then tightened the wedge. I then took my bevel square and referenced the right side of the plane and then ran the beam right up against the actual iron. I think this should be the most accurate way to math the skew angle, because I am actually referencing the cutting edge in the plane.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J Evans View Post
    Thanks Steven for the pics.
    I am going to regrind the skew angle. I'm not sure if this was a better way to match the skew of the plane, but I advanced the iron until the entire cutting edge was above the sole. I then tightened the wedge. I then took my bevel square and referenced the right side of the plane and then ran the beam right up against the actual iron. I think this should be the most accurate way to math the skew angle, because I am actually referencing the cutting edge in the plane.
    This may be over thinking it. The blade only needs to match the sole. The reason setting a bevel gauge to the mouth of the plane didn't work is the blade is also skewed on its axis. It is a compound skew angle. The bed to math is a single angle.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Matthews View Post
    [I] My solution was to file the blade - while it was inserted in the plane body.

    The irons in my planes are antique and quite "soft".

    Not just marking out contours *use the plane body* as a guide. Masking tape covers the sole and sides of the plane, the file rides flat on those surfaces.

    Once a clear "flat" is established, the iron can be honed on finer stones.[
    /I]

    ***

    One caution - the tape will wear and require replacement.


    +1 to Jim suggestion . Trying to understand the geometry of the blade and mouth of the body separately creates unnecessary complexity. Let the body to plane serve as your guide as in the final analysis that's where the rubber meets the road in use. BTW, you're definitely not alone – trying to plane clean, square, flat rabbits, either with a fenced or unfenced rabbit plane is always a matter of fractions between success and failure, that for me at least, typically requires plenty of trial and error to get the exactly correct set up. This is the reason electric router's were invented!

    I admire your determination and persistence. Making vintage hand tools work to their highest potential often requires a frustrating process of of fettling. This frustration is a big reason why contemporary tools from Lee Valley and Lee Nielsen that work perfectly were out of the box are so attractive.

    Best, Mike

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Allen1010 View Post
    [/I]

    +1 to Jim suggestion . Trying to understand the geometry of the blade and mouth of the body separately creates unnecessary complexity. Let the body to plane serve as your guide as in the final analysis that's where the rubber meets the road in use. BTW, you're definitely not alone – trying to plane clean, square, flat rabbits, either with a fenced or unfenced rabbit plane is always a matter of fractions between success and failure, that for me at least, typically requires plenty of trial and error to get the exactly correct set up. This is the reason electric router's were invented!

    I admire your determination and persistence. Making vintage hand tools work to their highest potential often requires a frustrating process of of fettling. This frustration is a big reason why contemporary tools from Lee Valley and Lee Nielsen that work perfectly were out of the box are so attractive.

    Best, Mike
    Thanks Mike
    Sometimes my determination is / can be a double edged sword. I hate giving up on a challenge and am really motivated to thoroughly understand a subject. But I've went too far in my pursuit of perfection and ruined a perfectly usable tool or didn't know when to stop pushing. In regards to ruining a tool, I just had a post about a lot of tools I picked up. It had a fairly nice try plane in it. I went to work on it last night and over planed the bottom (removed too much stock) in pursuit to get it perfectly flat and square. Instead of stepping back thinking to myself where to plane to get rid of the twist, I just took another shaving here and there, so on. Stopped to grab a been came back and looked at it to realize I planed way to much off the bottom. Now I am thinking it may need a sole.

  13. #28
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    I want to update this thread. Since my original post many months ago, I basically gave up on ever using this plane. I tried regrinding to match the angle of the mortise, the angle of the actual bed, the angle of the mouth and then when it still didn't work I threw it under the bench.

    I had ended up buying a stanley 78 and have been using that ( which works great) until a couple weeks ago when I snapped the lever cap in half... I wanted to finish up my box project and it hit me today to try the skew rebate again.
    So after another two grindings ( I've wasted most the iron at this point), I finally got it right.

    The suggestion was in a previous post, I just didn't understand it.

    So the fix to get the iron skew angle correct (drum roll.......)

    Mark back of iron with sharpie, insert into plane, advance iron to about 1/16 proud. Took a old chisel, put the flat side on the bottom of the plane and scribed a line across the sharpie and re ground to that line. I went very slow and tried to freehand a hollow, which mostly worked. Once I had that angle ground correct, I freehand set the mk2 sharpening jig and gave it a quick honing.

    Plane works great now and I got to finish my little box project.

    PS: compound angles can kiss me @$$

  14. #29
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    One more thing.
    For future sharpening. Is the iron supposed to be held straight,where the skew is point straight ahead or square across the stone (cutting edge 90 to side of stone)?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J Evans View Post
    One more thing.
    For future sharpening. Is the iron supposed to be held straight,where the skew is point straight ahead or square across the stone (cutting edge 90 to side of stone)?
    I don't follow the question.
    Perhaps a picture will help.

    Congrats on getting this running.

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